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There's no way to avoid pvp is there?

Doc
I have a problem with … being punished for not having high enough gear or being solo.

I've been told repeatedly on these forums that people who role-play bad characters should not expect to accomplish much at all solo, that PFO is not meant to be a solo game. It is only fair in my opinion that the same applies to people who role-play good characters.

I have a problem with forced pvp

I would love, sincerely, love for somebody to explain to me how PFO should work without forced non-consensual pvp.

Will PvP be only allowed to occur in specified hexes, maybe an arena? Shall conflicts between settlements be resolved by two people agreeing to fight a duel of honor with winner takes all? Maybe forces have an online meeting in teamspeak and agree on a date and time to show up and fight? Shall we use a flagging system where nobody who is unflagged for PvP can be attacked at any time?

I'd really like to know how it should work. Not being sarcastic.

Your big risk is that you might lose (and horrors, only end up with what you brought) while you're more likely risk is that you might only get enough to waste an hour of my time, instead of two or three or more.

Time is everything. Much more valuable than any virtual rocks you get from some node. More often than not, I spend 3 hours traveling, scouting, and waiting, and end up with nothing to show for it. I could have gotten plenty of resources in a fraction of the time but would rather spend the time hoping for PvP rather than right click on nodes mind-numbingly for 30 minutes.

Douche bags are useful.

That's cute.

You say that, but without somebody adding some element of danger to this game, all these alliances, and non-aggression pacts, and tower treaties, and people gearing up to be fighters - it all seems pointless. Already the war of towers is devolved into nothing, since defending towers is useless, so nobody that I can tell is really bothering to mess with them now. Basically, they just AFK cap them so no fighting. So beyond that, I guess people are just farming resources to make tier 2 gear that they don't really need?

I try really hard to be a "nice" bandit. I've actually had several people thank, yes thank me for the experience because so far they have been bored out of their mind. I can understand that.

If you have spent an hour working an escalation by now, then you have already experienced the extent of the PvE game in PFO that there is (besides the crafting). If you want to do anything else interesting it is going to involve real players, either trying to kill them or trying to run away from them. Or I suppose you could participate in the forum-based political bureaucracy simulation MMO, but I don't believe you need a subscription for that.
Pernicious
Doc
I could have gotten plenty of resources in a fraction of the time but would rather spend the time hoping for PvP rather than right click on nodes mind-numbingly for 30 minutes.
There it is. You don't like what I like, and the only thing that matters is what you like. Guess, what, I'd happily take 100 hours of that "mind-numbingly" mining over 30 seconds of you getting an adrenaline rush at the expense of my time. If the only way to make the game worth your time is to kill other people, then finding a way to do that is your problem. I should be able to have all the fun I want that doesn't take other people's time away from them. But that's not good enough for you. You won't get that twisted little thrill inside until you kill me and take my stuff.

To reiterate, douche bags are useful.
Doc
You won't get that twisted little thrill inside until you kill me and take my stuff.

I'd actually rather not have to waste the arrows (when ammo counts) and you just handed the stuff over. I'm looking forward to when those "features" get added to the game.

Wait, you know about that right? The fact that Goblin Works has specified and blogged about specific features for the game, one in particular called "Stand and Deliver" which is functionality for bandit-style play? Where you get to take stuff from other players?

https://goblinworks.com/blog/the-man-in-the-back-said-everyone-attack/
https://goblinworks.com/blog/i-shot-a-man-in-reno-just-to-watch-him-die/

Behaviors we want:
Large PvP wars. (Thus wars eliminate all reputation losses.)
Players able to defend themselves without concern. (Thus the Attacker flag.)
Players to attack each other over resources, money, territory, etc.
Most PvP to occur outside of settlements where there are no guards, laws, etc.
Players who are not PvP combat machines having some ability to discourage attacks via bounties, death curses, reputation loss, etc., but these should not be so onerous as to prevent PvP if the profit potential is there.
Players able to play their alignment, but at the same time not grief players of opposite alignment. If one player is chaotic evil and another lawful good, each should not be able to abuse the other without limit or recourse.

Am I a jerk for playing the game in a style which will eventually be represented in actual in game mechanics?

Maybe you should be more mad at Goblin Works, and/or read up on the actual proposed game concepts? I dunno, not trying to be a jerk, just trying to share my point of view.



Either way, it's not really about killingx players for me, it's about not knowing what is going to happen. The unpredictability.

The fact that you seem to wish to want to play a sandbox RPG game and yet not be subject to unpredictable adverse events is mind-boggling.
sooperspook
They're not unpredictable. They're very predictable. People like you will target people like me.

Doc
I'd actually rather not have to waste the arrows (when ammo counts) and you just handed the stuff over. I'm looking forward to when those "features" get added to the game.
So you'd rather have other people do the work and you reap the rewards then? Can't say I'm surprised.

Yes, these are "features" with more to be implemented. That doesn't mean they're a good thing.
From early on people have voiced their opposition to forced pvp. And to having stuff looted from players. Yet the devs seem to think that somehow we'll all magically become happy little pvpers because they say so.

I , personally, put money into the kickstarter simply because it was Pathfinder (which I love) before all this about forced pvp was finalised. Or so I thought, they may have had this concept from the beginning but it wasn't clear to me.

I've heard every argument as to why non-consensual pvp is good* and they all basically boil down to the pvper wanting his playstyle to take precedence over anyone elses. At least as far as I interpret it. Obviously they see it differently.

Actually this thread has become a rehash of the old threads on this subject so I think I'll leave it.
Take care all.

.
*I've never heard of non-consensual anything being good.
Pernicious
I do know about the planned state. And yes, you are a jerk for taking advantage of the lack of consequences now to do a bunch of killing and theft that cost you no consequences because those aren't implemented yet. I can't control that the developers put in husks without putting in any consequences for killing and taking stuff. So far, they've been brilliant about implementing half-complete features.

"Either way, it's not really about killingx players for me, it's about not knowing what is going to happen. The unpredictability."

Excuse me for not believing you. If you wanted the unpredictability, you'd avoid people who are busy crafting and don't know you're killing them, and ignore the people who run away so you could go look for a fight. You want an easy target and an easy score to get another hit of that easy high that comes from hurting someone else in an acceptable fashion.

All I wish (if I may quote you again) is for you to have some real consequences for killing people instead of taking advantage of the poorly implemented guards, more poorly implemented tower war (that lets anybody get killed in an entire hex whether they have anything to do with it or not), and poorly implemented reputation system that makes your penalty for abusing other people negligible.
Kakafika
This is a game of competition that pits player settlements in direct opposition to each other.

This is different than 'MMOs in general' because the 'average' MMO pits players against AI challenges; competition results where player groups compare how fast they can complete these challenges. PvP in the 'typical' MMO is a side-activity that has strict rules (e.g. WoW Arena/Battlegrounds) or has little consequence (e.g. WoW 'world' PvP).

In PFO, PvP is fundamental. It can have far-reaching effects and extreme costs. It has more rules than any other game like it (just listen to the veteran PvPers!), but it still has many fewer than the 'typical' MMO (just listen to the veteran PvEers!).

If you haven't played a game quite like this (EvE, Darkfall, etc), you may be surprised how much you enjoy this style of MMO! I recommend trying it out, but hopefully not so early in development that what it is turns you off from what it will be (with more development and a higher population).
Kakafika
@Qualch I urge you to consider how PvP in PFO is different than in other MMOs, and how that changes the motivations for engaging in PvP, and with whom.

In World of Warcraft (for example), somebody attacking people that can't defend themselves has little meaning and could be considered griefing in many cases. In PFO, the attacker has to spend time finding targets, choose his/her targets wisely so as not to lose what he/she is already carrying (and taking durability hits), stand around looting the husk (hoping defenders do not come to exact revenge), and travel back to where they came from safely to unload their loot. The attacker has to consider how much rep they will lose from a non-consensual attack; the penalty gets bigger if the target has higher reputation. The attacker becomes an open target to everybody for a time after the kill.

There is a lot more that goes into it than trying to prey on the weak and ruin somebody's day. That person is a part of a settlement, and an attack on that person weakens his/her settlement; that's how you compete in PFO.
Doc
Excuse me for not believing you. If you wanted the unpredictability, you'd avoid people who are busy crafting and don't know you're killing them, and ignore the people who run away so you could go look for a fight. You want an easy target and an easy score to get another hit of that easy high that comes from hurting someone else in an acceptable fashion.

All I wish (if I may quote you again) is for you to have some real consequences for killing people instead of taking advantage of the poorly implemented guards.

Not at all. You seem to like making assertions about how I play, in order to support your argument, when you don't know jack.

Yesterday, 2 people finally came to defend their region and we had a nice group fight for a bit and it was a lot of fun. I wasn't expecting that, it was surprising, and that made it exciting.

I do ignore the people who run away from me, because I can't easily catch them and they may be dragging me to teammates who will counter. I also run by and ignore people who look like they are just new players in starter gear.

I do want an easy target (despite ignoring noobs) because ultimately I want the experience to be profitable.

I don't often target AFK people because by now most have become smart enough to not just go AFK with tons of stuff on their person. I'd waste rep for nothing.

So you'd rather have other people do the work and you reap the rewards then? Can't say I'm surprised.

If you think learning how to combat human players effectively and waiting for hours to find good targets is "less work" than mindlessly right-clicking on a rock pile, then you are playing a different game than me.

I do know about the planned state. And yes, you are a jerk for taking advantage of the lack of consequences now to do a bunch of killing and theft that cost you no consequences because those aren't implemented yet. I can't control that the developers put in husks without putting in any consequences for killing and taking stuff. So far, they've been brilliant about implementing half-complete features.

Of course there are consequences. If I kill more than 5 players I can't even go back inside my own town.

Could they be more severe? Sure. But then you had even the leader of the biggest player group in the community, one that is dedicated to protecting other players, advocating during Alpha for lowering the reputation hits.
Pernicious
Kakafika
@Qualch I urge you to consider how PvP in PFO is [will be] different than in other MMOs, and how that changes the motivations for engaging in PvP, and with whom [if the developers ever get half their planned reputation mechanics implemented].
I fixed that for you
Pernicious
Doc
Of course there are consequences. If I kill more than 5 players I can't even go back inside my own town.
For a few hours. Oooh, scary stuff. And only if you kill five. Four is okay, though. We'll, that makes everything better.

Hey! Officer! that guy just killed four people.
Sorry ma'am, I don't give a shit unless he killed at least five.
 
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