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Sspitfire1
The latter part of this post yall might find highly educational in a non-condescending/mocking sort of way.

A wizard or cleric has to completely leave combat to regain the use of their spells. They are also subject to provoking and stationary when they cast AND have the longest cast time of anybody. I doubt many wizards will bother with their Spells due to how vulnerable the spell leaves the wizard, except to use buffs before heading into the fight. And Wizards have some nice buffs. Clerics will be slightly better off since they at least get to run around with medium and heavy armor on. But no one is going to want to stand around and wait to find out what kind of nasty melee spell the Cleric is trying to cast on them.

Rogues and Fighters have "spammable" Maneuvers in that all of them (except Augment) can be used over and over again each round- but only once per round. That means each round you have to worry about your Rogue or Fighter opponents trying to drop their oblivious/slow/fear/raze/status bomb on you again. And Augment- well, lets just say 350 hit points for the fighter with 45 physical resistance was bad enough. Now its 610 plus 21-33 per round for another 4 or 5 rounds.

Kadere, you are better of switching to Short Sword or Club. Your dagger will only have a 60% interrupt chance, before accounting for the failure chance due to defenses- and a 0% chance if they manage to hit you with an Oblivious bomb.

By the way, what happens when you get hit with 100 oblivious?

If your opponent is in the same Tier as you, on a normal attack, you should have a roughly 50/50 chance of dealing max damage and having full effectiveness with all of your stacks, stun-locks, and statuses.

At the high end of Tier 1 and low end of Tier 2, you will be adding between 30 and 50 to each of your attacks (Fighter Specialization and Racial Bonus). Lets work with the +50 to each attack since it is easier math.

High end of Tier 1 versus Tier 1: You need to roll at least 50 to get to 0 on your attack roll, and a 100+ to beat your opponent's Reflex Defense. While taking the lowest of 3d200 averages out to be 50, the reality of the matter is you won't see that number or higher but about 42% of the time. You won't roll a 100 or higher but about 13% of the time (and since you might actually be looking for something closer to 120, that only happens 6% of the time). Translation: On average, you will come up 50 points shy of your opponent's defense. Everything working properly, that means that on average you are loosing 45% of the damage, stacks, duration of stuns, and duration of statuses before EPRO and EPOW come into play. You won't deal full damage but between 5% and 15% of the time. Depending on the numbers, 1/3 to 1/2 of your attacks will only barely achieve 50% effectiveness.

High end of Tier 1 versus Tier 2: Forget about it. You are screwed. Their defense is over 100 and your attack stat is in the negatives. On average, you are going to miss by at least 100 points, which means you will loose a fully 2/3 of the effectiveness of ALL of your attacks- Expendable and regular. Time to run (if you can).

Low end of Tier 2 versus Tier 1: Fortunately for your Tier 2 attacks, both the average and median of the middle of 3d200 is 100. That means you are basically right back into Tier 1 attack effectiveness against your Tier 1 armored opponent. You'll achieve 100% effectiveness about half of the time. At the worst (they have 88 Reflex and you have +35 to attack), you face the same penalty as the Tier 1 v Tier 1 fight (which still sucks- but you also got the nice armor, right?). In this scenario, the Oblivious 100 is a pseudo equalizer for the fight (until it starts to wear off).

Low end Tier 2 versus Tier 2: So normally you are looking at needing an 80 or so to match their Reflex defense, which will happen about 2/3 of the time. After they smack you with Oblivious 100, though, you need a 180 on the roll, and that is only going to happen for you about 3% of the time. Your average and median roll of 100 will leave you about 57% down on all damage, stacks, etc- including your Expendables. Interestingly, this makes getting tagged with Oblivious 100 at Tier 2 even worse than at Tier 1. Go figure!

I hope this was helpful for folks.
Brighthaven Leader
Here is what I think they should be: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16elkj8Jh9HVJzltlF1DVyaR4eSDFiQGEGtB8znWVxyQ/edit?usp=sharing
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Tyncale
I think both you, Sspitfire, and Stephen are approaching combat too much from the spreadsheet viewpoint. The whole concept of the "cost" of a skill, where Stephen seems to balance variables like Endurance, duration, cast-time, strength and "number of targets affected" against eachother, seems like a very mathematical approach to Combat to me. That is currently not delivering very fun combat, imo.

I am your average MMO-gamer and I think combat and the choices a person makes during combat should empower him. There should be a tangible effect of his actions and choices. There are a few combo's and skills(heals mostly) that empower me and those were the ones I used. Ad nauseam. All the rest were just unused pretty pictures on my implement bar, my utility slots and several on my attack skill bar. Some were way too weak to waste power on them that I would rather save for Heal expendables like Lesser Cure and Augment. Like Holy Light, a level 3 cleric spell. Why would I waste 18 power for a one-time shot that can not even kill a bandit RECRUIT outright? May as wel use a cantrip or bow attack.

Some have too short durations to bother: why waste power on Resist Energy if the duration does not even last killing a group of 2 ogres? Better save that power for, again, Augment and Lesser Cure. (not even sure if the Sonic resistant actually did anything against those shouts). Why use an Utility like Bulwark that gives an effect that does not even last for a single mob, and to an effect that is negligable? And on a 24 second cooldown no less. Or get 6 seconds of +5 to your physical defense and then suffer an 18 second cooldown(Shield of Faith)? With the change to three rounds, I may actually start to use this.

Durations on states were too short to make tactical use of them imo and the effects on conditionals were so minor that it is not worth giving up doing pure DPS for them.

Anyway, tweaking will be necessary but thinking up doom scenarios from your spreadsheet will not convince me that this is a bad change.

I got very few examples btw on how people are currently succesfully using the synergy between States and conditionals in my "Dazed" thread. . Maybe everybody is keeping them a secret or maybe they think spamming states untill you trigger a few random conditionals is usefull in a large battle(I guess it should be from a spreadsheet viewpoint), but it certainly was not workable for me, and most importantly, no fun to even try.

Disclaimer: the fact that a lot of conditions are not working yet on NPC's undoubtedly has skewed my experiences with Combat. SO once stuns, immobilize, knockdowns, knockbacks, evades, charges and Oblivious are working, combat will be more fun. I also always talk from the PvE perspective. In case you think PvE combat should be always the one to suffer in balancing and not PvP, Bob would like a word with you. As well as the 300.000 PvE "sheep" that this game will need if they ever want to approach Eve-levels of success. And you will need them too: to build, so you can destroy. smile
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
markelphoenix
Here here, Tyncale. I agree with your write up. There is a lot of nice 'theory', but I am more interested in what humans will actually do. As you mentioned, people will typically narrow into the easy and powerful (Longbow + exploit anyone?) at the expense of variety.

With these changes, buffs will actually be worthwhile, expendables will be slow but impactful. The only complaint I have is the degree of buff that Rogue and Fighter got versus the DF on expendables such as Fireball and Scorching Ray. Seems a little weak when considering how uber squishy the Wizard is during casting of those spells, where at least the fighter/rogue have spam able versions they can use with added resistance to damage from their armors keeping them up long enough for the cast to get off (assuming no interruption has happened).

Furthermore, I read that armor and defense stats were suppose to play into the success rate of whether an interrupt attack was successful, this again makes the Cloth armor at a disadvantage to the others, if the interrupt probability is < dependent on armor and defense. Not asking for a 'survivability buff', but an increase to the ability of the 'least survivable role's' spell power, given the inherent defensive differential.]
Tyncale
It will need a lot of tweaks for sure.

The biggest challenge will be to keep it fun, and balanced between PvP and PvE. Maybe that's not even possible.

The way Everquest solved some of that was rather simple: they used the same spells, but the effect was tweaked for when the spell hit a PC. Some did not even work on PC's like Charm.

I am afraid that PvE combat will always be somewhat of the red-headed stepchild though when it comes to balancing for combat. PvP is where the Glory is at. PvP is the engine that makes the gears in the Game of Thrones go round.

But I say: PvE is the fuel. It effects the landscape(escalations), the harvesting, it yields resources fuels crafting, and it delivers a lot of fun to an important kind of player. Don't forget, guys, fun PvE gets those mobile nodes out there in the Wild! Handwaving at those nodes(harvesting) only goes so far when it comes to fun….

In any case, I think some kind of balance is possible here. smile
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Sspitfire1
@Tynnalce's Disclaimer: So basically what you just said is you don't use the full breadth of your abilities because your opponents (PvE mobs) ignore half of it. You are interested in what people do but advocating for the current Expendable changes because they seem to "fix" combat for your narrow gameplay experience that also happens to be broken in so many other ways unrelated to your Expendables. As to the bit about PvE being necessary, etc, preaching to the quire. Those PvE mobs, by the way, don't drop 100 Oblivious on you. If they did, you might be singing a slightly different tune.

@Tynnalce's "I don't use but two attacks on my bar": In PvE, I agree 100%. In PvP, I have a full set of attacks on both weapons AND 2 Utilities AND my Maneuvers and I will use every last one of them in a fight. That is not math theory. It is actual practical applied experience.

What I am getting from all of this forum discussion is that:
a) Some folks are only looking at it from a PvE perspective, where your opponents are "dumb"- dumb in the sense they don't actually have smart, meaningful attack sequences, they can't heal, and they don't recognize half of the things you might do to them on your attack bar except Slow and Damage. So naturally you don't do anything but Slow and Damage.

b) Most folks don't actually understand the math underlying the game well enough to get creative with the spreadsheets, so they need Great Club-sized numbers if they are going to use anything besides their high damage attacks, etc. That (no offense intended here, Ryan) is a failure of the Combat Guide for the game. It gives us the math; but only a few of us actually have the time and the intellectual know-how to figure out what the math means. In other words, the combat system is opaque and the easiest way through is for folks to just use their high-damage attacks.

@Markel's "Longbow + Exploit": Check the sheets before you post. That issue has been fixed and in a smart way, to boot.

Basic Longbow Exploit 2.51 2.3 62 Provokes Opportunity, Stationary Bleeding 25 if Target has Opportunity, Precise +35 if Target has Opportunity, Distressed (3 Rounds) if Target has Opportunity

So what, by the way, is the most valuable part of that attack for a new player with 1K exp stats?

@Fireball being weak: Yes, and I actually think Stephen forgot to inflate its numbers. It looks to me like it does exactly the same as what it did before.

@"Assuming no interrupt has happened": Lol only if you are fighting mobs and they are not stamina starved.

@Defense and armor stats affect Interrupt: Yes, but wizards have a really high Reflex Defense due to their cloth armor and (if they are using it) Mage armor feat. At the end of the day, they are not too much worse off than a Fighter in Heavy, and might be slightly better (depending on things). If the interrupt failure is working correctly, then all you need to miss by is 23 points. That means if your opponent manages to get even a meager 50 oblivious off on you, you can say bye-bye to the success rate of your interrupt. I'm not sure that mechanic is functioning correctly right now, though.

Stephen, perhaps you should add 100 oblivious bombs to some of the PvE mobs so these guys can get a taste for what that is like? Maybe just invent a new attack for them that is 35m 100 Oblivious and put it on Cultists and Shaman? Let it be there opener? A 2.3 second attack time would be a fair offset. smile
Brighthaven Leader
Did you even read what I posted?

Did you even notice that about 1/3 of the spells I didn't even touch but to make them faster?

Did you even notice that I made a few things more powerful?

No, no you didn't, because you didn't take a look at the spreadsheet, or you would have noticed that the changes I made was to mainly balance out some of the crazy stuff….like oh…13 second stuns (do you want to be stunned for that long?) or 1100+ damage, or 1000-1600+ healing (both are very much imbalancing compared to everything else).

What I did was to balance a few things so that you would have more choices instead of a few things that you would continue to use, ad nauseam. I also balanced some of the stacks so that you wouldn't be debuffed to the point you could never recover.

Yes, I debuffed some of the effects of the Fighter, but I made him much faster, and I went one step further with the rogue. Rogue will now be EXTREMELY useful since his expendables can only be interrupted by a few things in the game, and they still pack a punch.

How about you actually read the changes I posted? My Point of View is from playing the game, and PvPing, mostly with people that choose one shtick and don't do anything else.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Tyncale
I did read your spreadsheet, Cheatle. Just this afternoon, I had your iteration on my center monitor, the old spreadsheets on the left and the new 4.0 values on my right monitor. I did notice you had altered most of the cast-times and toned down a few hard hitters. I also noticed you lowered 3 rounds to 9 seconds a few times. It was clear to me that you put in a lot of work into this.

The reason why I did not comment is because I am approaching this in a totally different way then you guys, so if I were to "challenge" you on your numbers, I would be talking pretty much out of my ***. In fact, a lot of your changes seemed to make sense, but once again, I can't really discuss those numbers, also because my playstyle is different.

It is true that Combat for me is PVE. I also added the disclaimer to show you that I realize that un-implemented stuff may also be part of the cause that I consider (PvE) combat not much fun. I also said that tweaks are most likely due.

Guys, I did not kill your puppy and I am not going to kill the game.

Sspitfire: you have called me "Tynacle" on many occasions and now you are calling me "Tynnalce": if you butcher my name one more time I wil *have* to come and fry your behind, PvP lover or not! smile

You also keep talking about math, and how some folks like me who can't understand math, need big numbers. I do not even need big numbers, I need to have fun in combat and feel that I have access to tools that do something. There was some stuff that did that, but also a lot of stuff that did nothing or was unworkable. Do you think the combat will become more fun for me if I understand the math behind it? Sorry man, I just need buffs and debuffs that last longer then 5 seconds. And some return for the Power I use up.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Brighthaven Leader
I think the issue here is this:

The new changes, if you get hit by a good portion of the expendables, a lot of them are going to nerf you to the point you can't do anything, or lasts so long that you are pretty much screwed. Another issue is that all of this has to be balanced between PvE and PvP, which I did, in PvE you have the luxury of using longer cast times to buff before you move in and attack, while if you are trying to buff in PvP you might regret it.

I think everything I proposed was actually a good compromise with what people want, and balancing between what we have in the game.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Sspitfire1
Tyncale
Sspitfire: you have called me "Tynacle" on many occasions and now you are calling me "Tynnalce": if you butcher my name one more time I wil *have* to come and fry your behind, PvP lover or not! smile

LOL have you met this guy named "Neeheemon" yet? You two would get along famously smile
 
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