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The Wizard/Armor Problem

martryn
Obviously this is going to be a complaint about wizards running around in heavy armor, but I know that eventually this will have a big impact on their spellcasting and be less viable.

However, today I made some robes for my party's wizard, and he tried robes on for the first time. After just a handful of encounters he was switching back to his heavy armor. There is a massive difference between a physical resistance of 7, and a physical resistance of 32.

The issue here is more about enemy AI targeting than armor. In other MMOs tanks have a way to draw aggro. There's a reason that they wear heavy armor and have all the HPs. In tabletop Pathfinder, fighters and paladins tend to go in front of the arcane casters, and the baddies have real trouble running around them to engage the casters in melee. In PFO, if we engage a camp of 12 goblins with a party of 4, even with the fighter rushing in first, three or four goblins/dogs are going to run around the fighter, around the cleric, around the rogue, and engage the wizard in melee combat, where he is vulnerable. And there is nothing the rest of us can do to prevent it. Entire strategies are being developed to try to kill or engage the enemy attacking our wizard before they can get there. It's not an issue with small mobs of baddies. There must be some sort of mechanism in the game that allows a character to draw aggro, or else punish the enemy for completely ignoring him.

We had a disgruntled player tonight throw up his hands and proclaim that the game is for fighters and clerics. Playing a rogue, I have to largely agree. My light armor (even with a 75 Reflex Save) just can't compete with the prevention of heavy armor and the 32+ physical resistance.
martryn
On a related note, our battleaxe wielding dwarf informed me that there is no reason to use a shield. Is that true? No effect on physical resistance or defenses, it just adds some "attacks" to your bar? Who is going to waste time using shield "techniques" when they can just cleave a head with an axe?
Tigari
Yes it's true about shields, they're pretty useless. And I would say if anything the game is more for Fighters and Wizards. Clerics are great for secondary swap, but don't do much on their own. And rogues are just weak fighters right now.

Walking up to a group of 8-9 goblins? just have a couple wizards AOE them and most of them die. then the fighters can rush in and cleave/Whirlwind the rest down, and archers and pick the others off.
Ortallus
Please delete this thread/comment.
My ban has now gone from 7 days to permanent with a chance to appeal after 6 months. Paizo has violated the ToS and EULA, which mention nothing about repercussions for actions on the forums resulting in loss of access to the game client. I have not done anything in violation of the rules which would warrant a ban from the game client.
Kitsune
Edit: Removed my post. I wasn't being very productive to the conversation. Carry on.
Edam
Most of the keepers wizards (including my DT) wear robes because they are wizards and that is what wizards do. Some of them have made it to Arcane 10 already so it can definitely be done (my wizzie is only arcane 7 but that is partly cos I play him less than my main). Its actually rahter hard to get weapon achievment 10 in many weapons (try it with a cleric focus) so wizards in robes are not that hard done by.

There is no doubt that casting wizard AoE from a +2 staff while wearing heavy armor with a longbow as a backup and a holy symbol equipped to get a few cures and buffs is "easy mode" for killing everything up to yellow ogres - but seriously you are better off in the robes and learning a few tactics. That sort of crazy multiclassing will slow down once we get to T2 and single focussed roles will start to gain advantages.

There hav ebeen complaints on the other forums that basically T1 wizards are nerfed because they cannot solo groups with purple ogres but that is crazy they are not meant to.

Note that one issue with heavy armor is it messes with your saves quite badly - so you can handle being beat on a lot better but casters tend to mess you around a lot more as well.
markelphoenix
So, Cloth Robes do give good energy resistance, which helps against other casters.

I too play a caster and feel the plight, but I play with cloth exclusively.

The Scholar Bonus to my knowledge skills that I have leveled, is nice. Increasing loot drops, especially on higher level mobs, will be a considerable bonus.

Also keep in mind, when going up against ranged casters, cloth will shine. Also keep in mind, that T2 will be a huge boost to your survivability. Not from any resistance, but from a decrease it the hit factor due to +50 defense + any defense buffs from keywords.

Don't think of it in terms of 'OMG I NEED PHYSICAL RESIST' think of it as 'As a caster, I am able to fight against what I know, which is magic. This is why I am better at taking magical hits. My goal is to keep any brutes from hitting me with their crude weapons, so I throw out spells of doom at them!' With the expendables upgrade in EE4, this will be more…..feasible.
martryn
I think people are missing the gist of my post while at the same time agreeing with me.

My complaint, and the problem that needs to be fixed, is introducing some sort of means to keep mobs off of the wizard and the ranged characters. In straight up tabletop Pathfinder, the wizard is typically in the back of the party, and enemies can't get through the fighter, or rogue/cleric/ranger/druid/whatever, to strike him. In tabletop, the wizard might have an AC of 18 while the fighter has an AC of 32. I'm saying the wizard, though a high priority target, is protected by his meat shields during combat and doesn't have to worry too much about taking hits.

If PFO is going to simulate the tabletop game, there needs to be some mechanic for mobs not rushing straight past 3-4 melee combatants just to bum rush the wizard. The AI needs to recognize the pros and cons of provoking opportunity, and not be so quick to send so many enemies after the wizard. In that case our party wizard, at least, won't feel so obligated to wear heavy armor.

I understand and can accept the AI going after all targets, and there isn't an issue if mobs have a clear run at the wizard, or only have to run past a single character, but other characters need a better mechanism for provoking aggro. My job in the party, as the rogue, has been to stand back between the fighters and wizard and try to engage anything that makes it past the fighters, and then help the wizard drop the mobs that do attach to him. I hate doing this. The wizard hates that a group of 5 guys will sometimes send 2 of them right past the fighters, the cleric, and the rogue to try to engage him. The rest of the party hates trying to drop mobs as the wizard runs in circles. It's not fun. We're supposed to have roles to play, and the AI is preventing us from using those roles effectively.
markelphoenix
I think the AI is doing it's job rather well. I do think that there can be some cool potential for a 'Defender Aura' where someone can tag one or more people as a 'Defensive Target'. The two would have to be within a relatively close proximity, and as long as the mobs are targeting the 'Defended' target, the Defended targets defenses go up and the defenses of the enemies go down.

Logic behind this is that if they're ignoring the guy who is focused on defending you the wizard, they're doing so by exposing themselves to risk, while at same time you're receiving defensive benefits from your defender distracting and harassing them in spite of their single minded dedication to kill you. Tweak this idea with proper seasoning, and I think we have a winner. Depending upon the 'AI' of the particular monster would determine if they switched targets or stayed dedicated to making your life suck.
martryn
Anything, really, that might make the mobs more reluctant to just rush past the guys with the big weapons to attack the dude in the back. If a wizard can't stand and cast spells, and is forced to run around kiting mobs, the guy playing the wizard isn't going to be having much fun. Same with the guy with the bow. If he can't stand and shoot, and instead needs to kite mobs every. single. combat. then the game has created scenarios that will be troublesome, not in the spirit of tabletop Pathfinder, and not likely a lot of fun for "dedicated" casters and archers.
 
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