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Unbreakable vs Dragoon

Tuoweit
Gromzok
Another problem with resist is that it's performance depends on atk speed meaning that light weapon users that hit more often deal way less dmg to you than heavy weapon users (especially 2h).

This is false - Resistance is applied before Damage Factor.

Gromzok
As it stands Unbreakable is very unbalanced right now and resistance should be removed completely from this feat and replaced with something else entirely or every single fighter will run around with Dragoon unless they take a leap of faith and trust GW to fix Unbreakable (like i will do).

Having had more time to explore the significance of resistance and attack bonuses in-game, I've come around to the point of view that the Unbreakable armor feat is indeed somewhat underpowered. I think something like a doubling of its resistances (capping out at +6 to all) would not be out of line and wouldn't break (hah) anything.

Edam
To be honest I am finding at T2 that heavy armor itself is somewhat underpowered. Medium armor is only slightly behind in Physical Resistance, vastly ahead in terms of energy resistance and allows a significantly better reflex save (which at T2 can be more significant for damage reduction than straight resistance).
Gromzok
Tuoweit
Gromzok
Another problem with resist is that it's performance depends on atk speed meaning that light weapon users that hit more often deal way less dmg to you than heavy weapon users (especially 2h).

This is false - Resistance is applied before Damage Factor.
What is damage factor? Something like damage per second?
Tink says Stab
There are two damage values.

Base Damage - This number starts at something like 45(?) and is added to through modifiers. For example, MoO: Suffer gives you a bonus to base damage.

Damage Factor - Each attack feat has a DF, which acts as a multiplier on your Base Damage. If you have a Base Damage of 45, and attack using a DF of 3, you would do 45*3=135 damage to an opponent with no resistances (modified by your attack roll).

Resistances apply to Base Damage, so they are calculated before Damage Factor is taken into account. In the above example, if your opponent had 15 resistance to the attack type, you would deal (45-15)*3=90 damage.

Due to most of the attacks having a DF higher than 1.0, an increase of 1 to a resistance will regularly prevent more than 1 point of damage every attack. If I have a resistance of 39 (my current physical resistance) and increase it by 1, I could be reducing incoming damage by 16%.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Gromzok
Tinkerton
There are two damage values.

Base Damage - This number starts at something like 45(?) and is added to through modifiers. For example, MoO: Suffer gives you a bonus to base damage.

Damage Factor - Each attack feat has a DF, which acts as a multiplier on your Base Damage. If you have a Base Damage of 45, and attack using a DF of 3, you would do 45*3=135 damage to an opponent with no resistances (modified by your attack roll).

Resistances apply to Base Damage, so they are calculated before Damage Factor is taken into account. In the above example, if your opponent had 15 resistance to the attack type, you would deal (45-15)*3=90 damage.

Due to most of the attacks having a DF higher than 1.0, an increase of 1 to a resistance will regularly prevent more than 1 point of damage every attack. If I have a resistance of 39 (my current physical resistance) and increase it by 1, I could be reducing incoming damage by 16%.
Ok that explained it nicely and you are right if it's like that it indeed does balance light vs heavy issue.
Still issue remains that 3 points (even when multiplied) is not enough to compete with dragoon imo.
Maybe add increased saves or something but buff it up a bit please smile
If resistance was 5 instead 3 at highest lvls i wouldn't complain smile
Eldrag
Totaly agree with first post smile
HowardWdW
Glad to see this topic has come back up again. Personally I have been really wanting to try out a set of Captain's Scale +3 matched to my Unbreakable rank 8 armor feat. One less keyword match vs Ornate Steel Plate +3 but higher reflex and other defenses. Haven't been able to do this yet, but my intuition is saying (still) that heavy armor is under-powered for Fighters.

Still think Unbreakable needs a buff vs. Dragoon as others have commented along with math before. Perhaps Dragoon needs to be down-graded in physical resistance (but higher than medium armor), up-graded in reflex defense (but lower than medium armor) and increased in + to attack and damage. Unbreakable should be increased in resistances (and/or as Cheadle suggested vs. Critical hits) and increased a bit in reflex defense, so that medium armor is clearly inferior for a heavy fighter. In this way the two roles of dps and tank would be more clearly delineated.
Tink says Stab
Personally I believe that Unbreakable is tanky enough against physical damage. If it is to be seen as useful in combat, I believe that it needs to be buffed in magical resistances. If it had some magical resistance, I would very seriously consider switching from Dragoon.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Edam
Tinkerton
Personally I believe that Unbreakable is tanky enough against physical damage. If it is to be seen as useful in combat, I believe that it needs to be buffed in magical resistances. If it had some magical resistance, I would very seriously consider switching from Dragoon.

The benefit of Unbreakable of course is it does add a little magical resist. Giving heavy back its magical resist would make Dragoon even more attractive.

Nevertheless, if there was a corresponding Physical Resistance Buff to robes I would not see it as unbalancing. Though mathematically it makes sense to have the extreme ends of the scale set to zero. If all armor reduced physical and all armor also reduced magical you may as well just reduce based damage slightly and be done with it.
Compromise option -> add some magical resist to heavy and physical resist to robes at T2 and above and leave T1 the same.
HowardWdW
Originally this thread suggested that the difference between Dragoon and Unbreakable armors was insufficient. I still think that is true. 2 less physical and 1 2 or 3 less magical resistance per Tier and 2 less hit points per keyword vs. an increasing plus to hit on melee attacks and critical hit (+5/+7 up to +20/+25) is not a sufficient difference in my opinion.

Unbreakable could increase the hit point differential per keyword as another way of making the armor more "tank-like" without altering the resistances at all if people think those are OK.

The thread has expanded more recently to a debate about heavy armor in general vs. medium armor. That one is more difficult to study, although medium armor seems to have an edge to me. I'm not up enough on the math to figure whether the vast increase in reflex defense that medium gives over heavy is better or offsets the small change in physical resist(7 less than physical than dragoon, 9 less than unbreakable armors?) with most attacks targeting reflex defense, and meanwhile the medium armor also gives higher magical defense. It's worth noting though that not only does the reflex defense make you harder to hit but also makes you harder to critical hit.
 
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