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Player Suspensions and Bans

arty155jln
BLUF: I believe the timing of announcements could have been handled better. This is a chance for GW/NewCorp to learn from this experience.

Bringslite
arty155jln
Smitty
Follow up because it also needs to be said.. I am always behind a level playing field for all groups… Having an council is fine, but like I said above the longer this takes the further we get from that field..
From what I understand about this scenario , perhaps at one time one of these players that was banned may have been involved in said council meeting as that player had many accounts and also controlled at least one settlement..

If some group was waiting in the winds so to speak, and was interested in coming into the game, or an established group wanted to relocate.. the sudden departure of holdings and outpost surrounding some of the places in question may prove to be tempting targets..

Letting some folks know about that departure and then waiting for an extended period of time before publically announcing what happened lets people that already have the information prepare and sort things out before it is public knowledge..

That screams favoritism to an outsider observer, and that is something GW needs to avoid..
I never thought of it that way. This is a great point, and while I don't think a council in general is a bad idea, in this case a full public declaration would have made sense.

I know of at least 3 separate takeover actions that took place over the weekend relating to this incident. I doubt that these actions will hurt "newbie" companies (because overall population is still too low), but it should not be the precedent that existing settlements get the first notice of any changes to existing settlements.

So if anything, I would suggest that GW/NewCorp make public declarations first, so everyone is on fair footing when it comes to the strategy part of the game. Then take the current settlement leaders aside and explain the details (as was done) so they can disseminate as they saw fit.

I am not sure if these actions are any different from regular actions anywhere on the server. Any company can perpetrate similar actions but it is unclear if unaffiliated Companies can perpetrate(feud) non-penalty aggression. All settlements were asked to attend the meeting so technically no priviledged info was unavailable to anyone and none was withheld from anyone that could use it.

Having said that, Ante Omnia Armari (a company of Ozem's Vigil) did aggress(feud) and capture 2 holdings with further goals in mind. We are only interested in an equal playing field for all. If there is some unfair advantage taken here, we will comply with GW's ruling. We will however, expect a chance to speak on it if there is a problem.
Eventually Companies that are not aligned with a settlement, should be able to take over their own settlement. So if only "settlement" leaders were present, and not all leaders of Companies, then there was a slight advantage to current companies who already control settlements. Not that at this time it makes much of a difference due to the low populations, but in the future GW/NewCorp need to make announcements to the public first.

I'm not saying that actions taken this weekend were "wrong" or unfair, only that this incident spurred action. GW is at fault here, not the companies. The Company Leaders of Companies who own settlements were made aware of information, and acted on that information. Again, I don't fault the companies or company leaders for acting on good information from GW. Goblinworks in my opinion should have in hindsight made the announcement to the public first.

For me the big take away is the big flaw in "settlement" leaders. We should be discussing things with Company leaders, and all company leaders, not just a privileged few where their companies own settlements. So while I don't have a problem with GW explaining details of what happened with Company Leaders of Companies that own settlements, I think that the order was reversed, and that a full public declaration of events should have been made on the forums, and then after that full declaration GW had their Outlaw Council meeting.
Bringslite
Yes. Eventually companies should be able to do lots of stuff. This isn't a new concern. I feel like a real draw for this game will be the empowering of small unaffiliated groups to do things like feud, place holdings, take contracts, etc… Companies were meant to be the real social center of a player's world. They were meant to be feasible even if they specialized. That got lost somewhere.

They aren't at the moment, so there you go. This wasn't really something that could be kept quiet. Whatever reasons GW had for the order in which they do/did things isn't for me to judge and I honestly do not remember the reasons given well enough to repeat here, but they did explain why and maybe someone else remembers?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Lucius
How is any of that sorta thing gonna matter or work when there are thousands of players and hundreds to thousands of companies?! Settlements are already the smallest organizational unit for any sort of personal discussion, sh*t I would say it might be too large already to be much more useful than as a press corp.

While the info was a bit of a heads up if yer people were there ya would know immediately, it got to us in minutes and we didn't even send anyone to the damn meeting! We were gonna do what we did anyways so it dont matter much but I could see some need to be a bit careful with the intel side of things tho in this case nothing was particularly actionable as none of the final ramifications are gonna be cemented for a little while anyways.

Kinda all circles back to my still unanswered question: what the hell does anyone think is a better option for talking to the playerbase in depth? I'll give ya announcement like stuff can be blasted out or posted somewhere but what sort of meaningful discussion mechanism do ya think is gonna work on a typical MMO population that will relieve yall complaints about crowdforging?
Bringslite
Lucius
How is any of that sorta thing gonna matter or work when there are thousands of players and hundreds to thousands of companies?! Settlements are already the smallest organizational unit for any sort of personal discussion, sh*t I would say it might be too large already to be much more useful than as a press corp.

While the info was a bit of a heads up if yer people were there ya would know immediately, it got to us in minutes and we didn't even send anyone to the damn meeting! We were gonna do what we did anyways so it dont matter much but I could see some need to be a bit careful with the intel side of things tho in this case nothing was particularly actionable as none of the final ramifications are gonna be cemented for a little while anyways.

Kinda all circles back to my still unanswered question: what the hell does anyone think is a better option for talking to the playerbase in depth? I'll give ya announcement like stuff can be blasted out or posted somewhere but what sort of meaningful discussion mechanism do ya think is gonna work on a typical MMO population that will relieve yall complaints about crowdforging?

Have to agree that Outlaw Council would be a disaster if it were on a company leader level invite deal. Besides the fact that they are not really crowdforging sessions and no major changes come about because of them. At least not so far.

Edit: When the game takes off and there are 100s of unaffiliated companies, it might be best to alter how things work. At least to take a look at it.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bob
My apologies that we haven't sent out the official statement on this issue yet. Part of the point of the Outlaw Council meeting was to get a feel for the reaction before sending out the larger communication, and complications arose that have delayed sending that statement out. I hope to have it finished up today.
arty155jln
Lucius
How is any of that sorta thing gonna matter or work when there are thousands of players and hundreds to thousands of companies?! Settlements are already the smallest organizational unit for any sort of personal discussion, sh*t I would say it might be too large already to be much more useful than as a press corp.

While the info was a bit of a heads up if yer people were there ya would know immediately, it got to us in minutes and we didn't even send anyone to the damn meeting! We were gonna do what we did anyways so it dont matter much but I could see some need to be a bit careful with the intel side of things tho in this case nothing was particularly actionable as none of the final ramifications are gonna be cemented for a little while anyways.

Kinda all circles back to my still unanswered question: what the hell does anyone think is a better option for talking to the playerbase in depth? I'll give ya announcement like stuff can be blasted out or posted somewhere but what sort of meaningful discussion mechanism do ya think is gonna work on a typical MMO population that will relieve yall complaints about crowdforging?
I guess I fail to see how player bans are even an issue with crowdforging. Crowdforging to my limited understanding is for the purpose of shaping the gameplay of the world, not for dealing with EULA violations. I believe the only reason any of this is currently an issue is because of how low the population is, and the potential negative PR that could come from this issue, all at a critical time before NewCorp takes over. If this same thing was to happen a year from now, I highly doubt it would have been handled in the same manner.

Honestly the only reason I'm posting now, is because there are no active threads in the crowdforging. The bans happened, and the player-base is already moving on.
Lucius
arty155jln
Lucius
How is any of that sorta thing gonna matter or work when there are thousands of players and hundreds to thousands of companies?! Settlements are already the smallest organizational unit for any sort of personal discussion, sh*t I would say it might be too large already to be much more useful than as a press corp.

While the info was a bit of a heads up if yer people were there ya would know immediately, it got to us in minutes and we didn't even send anyone to the damn meeting! We were gonna do what we did anyways so it dont matter much but I could see some need to be a bit careful with the intel side of things tho in this case nothing was particularly actionable as none of the final ramifications are gonna be cemented for a little while anyways.

Kinda all circles back to my still unanswered question: what the hell does anyone think is a better option for talking to the playerbase in depth? I'll give ya announcement like stuff can be blasted out or posted somewhere but what sort of meaningful discussion mechanism do ya think is gonna work on a typical MMO population that will relieve yall complaints about crowdforging?
I guess I fail to see how player bans are even an issue with crowdforging. Crowdforging to my limited understanding is for the purpose of shaping the gameplay of the world, not for dealing with EULA violations. I believe the only reason any of this is currently an issue is because of how low the population is, and the potential negative PR that could come from this issue, all at a critical time before NewCorp takes over. If this same thing was to happen a year from now, I highly doubt it would have been handled in the same manner.

Honestly the only reason I'm posting now, is because there are no active threads in the crowdforging. The bans happened, and the player-base is already moving on.

I'll give ya that. This specific case don't count as crowdforging but someone brought it up as ther complain and thats what I'm responding to.
Bringslite
arty155jln
Lucius
How is any of that sorta thing gonna matter or work when there are thousands of players and hundreds to thousands of companies?! Settlements are already the smallest organizational unit for any sort of personal discussion, sh*t I would say it might be too large already to be much more useful than as a press corp.

While the info was a bit of a heads up if yer people were there ya would know immediately, it got to us in minutes and we didn't even send anyone to the damn meeting! We were gonna do what we did anyways so it dont matter much but I could see some need to be a bit careful with the intel side of things tho in this case nothing was particularly actionable as none of the final ramifications are gonna be cemented for a little while anyways.

Kinda all circles back to my still unanswered question: what the hell does anyone think is a better option for talking to the playerbase in depth? I'll give ya announcement like stuff can be blasted out or posted somewhere but what sort of meaningful discussion mechanism do ya think is gonna work on a typical MMO population that will relieve yall complaints about crowdforging?
I guess I fail to see how player bans are even an issue with crowdforging. Crowdforging to my limited understanding is for the purpose of shaping the gameplay of the world, not for dealing with EULA violations. I believe the only reason any of this is currently an issue is because of how low the population is, and the potential negative PR that could come from this issue, all at a critical time before NewCorp takes over. If this same thing was to happen a year from now, I highly doubt it would have been handled in the same manner.

Honestly the only reason I'm posting now, is because there are no active threads in the crowdforging. The bans happened, and the player-base is already moving on.

As far as I can tell, player bans are not crowdforged. As far as I can tell, Outlaw Council meetings are not crowdforging sessions, but you know how it is…. It could be written 100 times and there will still be those who disagree or don't believe it.

Before the first meeting (back in the day) I was not attending but I did write Lisa suggesting that there be some GM Juniors chosen from the player base. Give them limited powers. Track what they do. Cover the times that GW's 3-5 employees can't. From what I heard afterwards… swiftly shot down! This is a micro example of the jealousy of players toward each other at any and all levels of interaction. We are more worried about someone having some kind of edge over us than things like temp removal of chat privileges for characters named things like T@mp#^^ Lic%$r and the neat comments he wants to share with us. I suspect that might be a large part of what bothers some people about "Outlaw Council". They think that it is providing some sort of unfair advantage or denying anyone their say in something.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bob
Bringslite
You are a Troll
I thought GW had no ability to track items in game with *logs etc* - has this now changed, and if so, since when? Was this also part of the Outlaw Council discussion?

Good question. Because of these oddities and multiple requests, GW developed some tools to examine player logs easier. This took some 2 or 3 weeks away from other development time but is well worth it, IMHO.

We have been very clear for a long time that we're tracking a large amount of data in the logs. Our biggest issue has been the lack of tools to analyze that data efficiently, but we've mentioned multiple times that we intend to go back through that data as we develop the tools to do so. I even mentioned it in a forum posting less than a month ago when other possible exploits were being discussed. In this case, it became obvious that some of this work needed to become our top priority until the issue was resolved.
Bob
Bringslite
Having said that, Ante Omnia Armari (a company of Ozem's Vigil) did aggress(feud) and capture 2 holdings with further goals in mind. We are only interested in an equal playing field for all. If there is some unfair advantage taken here, we will comply with GW's ruling. We will however, expect a chance to speak on it if there is a problem.

I'm open to any arguments anyone wants to make on this front, but my current thinking is that placing holdings is the easy part. Keeping them over the weekend is the hard part if anyone wants to stop you.
 
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