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Lost Feat

deisum
While, I'm not a fan of the support mechanic, either, I do understand the design decisions behind it. Settlements have lots of 'carrots' to get folks to join (training, equipment, social, etc.), but those carrots have been proven to be insufficient to get players to leave the equivalent of NPC settlements in other games (especially EVE). Hence, support is a 'stick' designed to actively drive characters away from newbie towns.

I think directly tying character power to settlement power is a very effective stick and drives player investment in settlements, both of which are excellent attributes toward the long-term health of the game. That said, I agree that the mechanism of reducing access to trained feats is ham-fisted and contentious. However, I don't have any better ideas.

An alternative mechanism to create the same sort of motivations and limitations described above seems like a fantastic opportunity for crowd-forging, and could be the canonical example of the effectiveness of crowd-forging, if successful.
deisum
Giorgio
Why the hostility to a key game concept you clearly don't understand the reason for? Have you…

It's a mechanic that has major implications to personal investment into the game. If it requires blogs and discussions and long posts justifying it in the face of a rather simple criticism, perhaps the problem doesn't lie solely with the critics.
Giorgio
deisum
It's a mechanic that has major implications to personal investment into the game. If it requires blogs and discussions and long posts justifying it in the face of a rather simple criticism, perhaps the problem doesn't lie solely with the critics.

It absolutely has major implications, which is a very good thing! Criticism is good, but if you dismiss it out of hand without understanding why, while expressing contempt, that is another matter. If you just want to threaten to take your ball home (quit and take your money elsewhere); then you really don't have any interest in being a crowd forgeing pioneer and making this a better game.

If you have questions, concerns, worries, want to theory craft, debate the implications, and/or are not convinced, by all means participate in the conversation; you would not be the only one who has concerns. And you can help make the game better by being an active participant in the conversation.
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

PM Giorgo on Paizo Forums
PM Admin George on Commonwealth of the Free Highlands
Giorgio
deisum
It's a mechanic that has major implications to personal investment into the game. If it requires blogs and discussions and long posts justifying it in the face of a rather simple criticism, perhaps the problem doesn't lie solely with the critics.

PFO is not your typical themepark MMO, there are some things (like "XP over time" )that can't not be explained in a sentence or two; some concepts (and their implications) are complex and take some effort to explain and understand.
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

PM Giorgo on Paizo Forums
PM Admin George on Commonwealth of the Free Highlands
deisum
@Giorgio: You're dismissing the criticisms outright because of the tone of the critic. IMO, this criticism is definitely warranted, whether or not you agree with the critic's method. Attacking the critic is just derailing the discussion.
Kitsune
Ryan Dancey
I'm not being condescending or dismissive. I'm dead serious: Hard is fun. Part of what makes this game fun is that it is hard. Part of why it is hard is that you have to work with other people. You have to make meaningful choices. Some of those choices are who you choose to associate with and how you choose to interact with them.

There's a hundred games where you can solo your way to the level cap then run raids with randoms. This is not one of those games. This is the one game in a hundred where your social connections are your character power. It's integral to the design and it won't be changed.

And I think that's fun.

(sorry to quote the whole post, but it was warranted)

Yeah, I stopped reading this thread after this post. I think it says everything that needs to be said. Too many people here don't understand that this is the whole concept behind PFO: hard is fun.

And you know what? This game is hard - at least when trying to play it solo. This game can even be difficult at times when playing with other people.

But that's fun.

And being a part of the community that's helping to shape this game into its ultimate design (a.k.a. crowdforging) is also fun.

To be honest, I'm not sure where "everyone else" got this notion that PFO would be a typical cookie-cutter MMO. Because the impression I'm getting from these people is that that's what they want from PFO.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
I'm not sure Giorgio was dismissive at all. Like many of us, he has been following the game closely for a long time, and has had a lot of time to absorb underlying mechanics that are not simple to convey. PFO is not going to be an easy game to understand, and you seem to be joining late, which means you are in a difficult position of lacking a bunch of background that has generated dozens of discussions across hundreds of messages. While your tone might be a bit abrasive to some, you aren't being ignored.

A lot of thought has gone into the game's design to try to overcome some factors in other games that generate problems. Whether they will work or not is still a question, but little of what you are experiencing is random.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
It appears that "hard is fun" is being used very selectively instead of the mantra of the overall game experience. I'd like to think of some other situations where this mantra should also be applied.

How about when someone gets killed while afk in front of an NPC settlement bank? If they should return to find themselves naked and with empty pockets, "hard is fun" right?

How about everyone having the same husk looting mechanic, including the original owner, doesn't "hard is fun" apply there as well?

I could really buy into it if it were more universal.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Kadere
In summary: ok, bye.
Doc
PFO is not going to be an easy game to understand

I believe that is the most accurate and important statement in this thread.
 
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