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Lost Feat

Giorgio
deisum
@Giorgio: You're dismissing the criticisms outright because of the tone of the critic. IMO, this criticism is definitely warranted, whether or not you agree with the critic's method. Attacking the critic is just derailing the discussion.

I disagree, in my previous post I made it clear that a conversation on the subject is welcome; there are legitimate concerns on the mater. The disrespectful tone is unwarranted and needs to be called out, as it breeds a toxic atmosphere that is not welcome.
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

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Kitsune
Doc
PFO is not going to be an easy game to understand

I believe that is the most accurate and important statement in this thread.

It does say a lot. For some, that's awesome. For others, it's an accepted risk/consequence for being able to play and create the game they've always wanted. For others still, this concept is impossible to comprehend.
Thannon Forsworn
I'm still very much on the fence and concerned with how the support and training is going to shake out in the long run, but until then I'm still having fun building something. I'm not really concerned about it's impact on my character personally but on managing a settlement and alliances. Worse case it's too frustrating to deal with and I hand off what I have done and move on, best case you won't get rid of me for a long while.

One thing that always comes back to me is the story of rested XP in WoW. Originally in beta after you played for a few hours you started to get reduced XP. This was widely hated. They then introduced the concept of rested XP, if you had not played for awhile you had a few hours of boosted XP. Everyone loved it. The actual XP requirements never changed they just inverted the math, it was all perception. People like positives, they hate negatives even if they come out to the same thing.

That example doesn't work for all things, but the core is true, people like positives over negatives. If someone came up with a good idea it would be interesting if support could give you something instead of taking away something. I don't have an idea on what you could do (well I do but they feel boring) and for some things I very much think you should still need important choices, but it might be doable.
Thannon Forsworn
Master of Trade
Canis Castrum
Thannon.Forsworn@gmail.com
QMan
I'd rather use the word challenge instead of hard.
Hard is an impression given to the difficulty and subjective. Challenge can be both factual and subjective. It works on more levels. I would add theme is very important as well for this game. I believe the IP being based off Pathfinder implies a social contract between the player and GoblinWorks. And that is a very personal one. Perhaps a more thematic explanation as to why one would lose access to one's abilities could help alleviate some of the objections brought forth. Or perhaps not.

Either way my criteria when I look at the rules for PFO are this:

A thematic challenge is fun.

This leaves it up to interpretation without the laborious connotation that can be seen as more of a wedge between two different play styles.smile
Decius
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
It appears that "hard is fun" is being used very selectively instead of the mantra of the overall game experience. I'd like to think of some other situations where this mantra should also be applied.

How about when someone gets killed while afk in front of an NPC settlement bank? If they should return to find themselves naked and with empty pockets, "hard is fun" right?

How about everyone having the same husk looting mechanic, including the original owner, doesn't "hard is fun" apply there as well?

I could really buy into it if it were more universal.
Taking a quote out of context and using it to mean something different (just because it could be said with the same words)?

Say what you will, I live free.

"Hard is fun" means that there are meaningful consequences for doing poorly; Nethack isn't hard and fun because it's so complex that only a few people could ever learn to play it at the highest level. Nethack is hard and fun because you can lose it through no fault of your own, but you can reduce the chance of losing that way if you play properly.

PFO will be hardfun not because you need to do n-dimensional matrix math to figure out which role feature to slot. PFO will be hardfun because when your settlement gets wiped out by a different group, you lose power (in a way that was partially beyond your control, but partially within it).

And yes, I expect there to be some more pains as each individual struggles with figuring out how to maximize their agency regarding controlling their outcomes.
Smendor
Sorry if I said something to abrasive anywhere. I tend to have cyclical arguments with myself all of the time, and it is very hard to offend myself.

I am thinking about the concept more.

I think it would be a very good idea to make the support function extremely obvious to persons that have not been around all that much. I have only been readying all of the Blogs for about 5 month, and I had not seen\understood it before. So please do not assume everyone knows about it. You are going to have this same kind of post over and over again until it is for example part of every starter document\character sheet. I have seen a few fist fight at a D&D table during my time. Most gamers are crazy.

I am thinking. I will change my mind 49 more times.
Nihimon
@VonGonda, +1 smile
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Kradlum Kabal
@VonGonda, +1 smile
Don't worry, I had the same thoughts when I first discovered this mechanic.
Honest Snotbad's Travelling Traders. Purveyors of fine goods since 2015.
Stoneroot Glade - Home of the brave.
deisum
That many people have the same negative reaction to learning about this mechanic is precisely why that mechanic deserves increased scrutiny. I'm still not convinced the only way to drive people out of the NPC settlements is to make anyone not part of a PC settlement reduced to low levels. I'd much prefer to see some sort of economic detriment (loot & gathering included) be the impetus (along with the lack of everything PC settlements bring).
Nihimon
deisum
That many people have the same negative reaction to learning about this mechanic is precisely why that mechanic deserves increased scrutiny.

Greater scrutiny is always worthwhile. However, I think it's important to remember that a lot of people will come to PFO with preconceptions about what it should be as an "Open World PvP" game - and those preconceptions are wrong.

In Pathfinder Online, your social network and your Settlement are aspects of your Character's power. One of the most important reasons for doing that is to ensure that players are constrained in their behavior. This is not any "anything goes" PvP game. There is a very important feedback loop that ties random, meaningless PvP to gimped character development. That's a critical feature of the game, and it's going to be a shock to many of the folks who come here expecting something like EVE or Darkfall.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
 
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