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Sincere question: Where and what kind of PvP is allowed?

Flynn Pontis
Vrel
It actually is quite pleasant. That said I will never understand why people believe it is okay for them to attack out citizens in our lands and expect that they should be allowed to walk away untouched or only by a degree they deem "okay". Does it occur that the actions they took against our citizens…to that citizen…were overzealous, too much?

Again, the armor break situation was in response to a series of events that most of you didn't know about and that I have made mention of (I think this is the first time they have been spoken of on a forum) above and that Tabomo and Elsworth further clarified. It is not an EBA or even a TSV standing practice and was a stance taken based on our view of the actions of our opponents. And the relation with those opponents has since changed.

I have a couple questions/statements/opinions in regards to Shrine camping.
1. How would you classify spawn killing?
- I would classify it as a dishonorable behavior to be looked down upon, but definitely an effective strategy that skirts the line of jerkdom. It might be allowed in this current iteration of the game (due in part to vague policies in place) but is it a desirable strategy that will reinforce the idea of PFO being different than other MMOs in its ability to deal with toxic or anti social behaviors. No.

2. Nihimon has made clear that he believes that shrine killing is an acceptable strategy to be used in order to break peoples equipment so why is there any argument about a misunderstanding on the part of parties not directly involved in his use of said strategy?
- He has posted that he agrees with spawn camping to break the gear of his enemies so why is he surprised parties not directly involved with these incidents are piping up and voicing their opinions on the matter? Do you have to be victimized prior to being able to voice your opinion on something as universal as camping a shrine to destroy a persons equipment? No.

3. "Does it occur that the actions they took against our citizens…to that citizen…were overzealous, too much?" Am I to understand that because there were bandit raids against some of your alliance members that the aggressors were over zealous in their pursuit of PVP in a PVP game? What would you deem to be acceptable pvp in a pvp sandbox game? Arena pvp where two opposing parties armed to the teeth agree to meet up in one place? Or perhaps the placeholder WOT which is a very crude iteration of PVP that will be done away with soon?
-Gatherers are going to cry foul when they get attacked and killed but you should not confuse them as victims rather combatants that lost. When a bandit goes to attack a gatherer the gatherer engages in a fight based off mobility that they are just as likely to win one on one against a bandit. If the Gatherer outruns the bandit they win and the bandit loses. Those are the mechanics of the game plain and simple there is no victim rather just two combatants. Kudos to the EBA for finding a way to make the bandits suffer for their actions with towers, that was the proper way to deal with it. But thats where it should have concluded, stating that spawn camping is a viable tactic and is justified as an acceptable deterrent to aggression by enemies is not a valid reason to engage in the practice and then complain that people are vilifying you for it.

4. How can a group of players state that it is not there policy to spawn kill players to break their equipment when there is such a vocal defense of the validity of spawn camping? How can the EBA or TSV state that it is not their policy to spawn camp when they haven't come out stating that they don't/won't spawn camp?
- Nihimon is an integral part of the EBA let alone TSV so are we wrong to wonder about TSV or the EBA's official policy in regards to spawn camping? By refusing to have a policy on spawn camping you are condoning the action which in itself is a reflection of your opinion on the matter.

5. The EBA is made up of a group of diverse individuals with a number of varying opinions so why is it that we are only seeing the official stance of Nihimon on spawn camping? Are we to judge the respective groups he belongs to based solely on what he has said? There has been some support for Nihimons interpretation of Spawn camping but no concrete statements from other camps. Does Nihimon speak for himself as an individual or for his affiliates as well?
- If he speaks as an individual is this contrary to what the policies are in the respective associations that he is part of? Because if an individual in my company/settlement/alliance was acting in a manner that I was not supportive of I would call him out on it or let him know I am in agreement. So does the EBA or TSV agree with his individual sentiments on the matter of shrine camping or is it just an opinion that he holds?

I apologize for the size of this chunk of text but I am very curious to see your opinions on the matter and maybe give you an understanding of how myself and perhaps other players are feeling/wondering.
Nihimon
Rynnik
Do you intend to play the player settlement game and burn someones settlement down as part of the game over a war started from the murder of a simple harvester? Great! I love it. Great concept, great gameplay, great idea and an easy pitch to sell the game outside to other new players who think that is cool.

Do you intend to make someone miserable because you can and will burn down their settlement if they don't do what you tell them to?

Might it not have been better to make an effort to divine my intent prior to publicly attempting to dress me down?

Rynnik
Explain what I twisted please?

Again? Sure.

I said:

Nihimon
You heard me say we'd break your gear if we could, and I stand by that. If you attack us, we'll do what we have to in order to defeat you, ranging from driving you away to breaking your gear to burning down your Settlement.

I will say that if we ever do end up killing folks at a shrine, it will be folks who are consistently regrouping at that shrine after they die only to stage another attack on us. And I sincerely hope Goblinworks gives folks a choice about where they respawn before it ever comes to that.

You twisted that into an accusation - a false accusation that echoes my enemies - that I intend to GRIEF and PLAY TO CRUSH. You twisted my clearly stated limits on killing folks at shrines - which mirror your own "perfectly acceptable" exceptions - into an accusation that I am "creating an environment where their only choice is to be trapped and miserable at your hands or to log off and not play the game at all".

Beyond that, you have refused to engage my responses to you so far except to repeat your false accusations.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Edam
LuckyCharms
The EBA is made up of a group of diverse individuals with a number of varying opinions so why is it that we are only seeing the official stance of Nihimon on spawn camping?

Nihimon can certainly speak for TSV as their leader. Unless he specifically says it is also EBA policy you should not assume it is.

A couple of comments.

- I have no personal opinion either way about spawn camping, however my impression is many people see it as bad conduct in small gang/bandit PvP but a valid tactic in a tower battle. The reason for the perceived difference seems to be that in a tower battle the spawn camping is serving a functional purpose and actually helps the battle, in the bandit killing a gatherer case the spawn camping is solely to upset the other player for kicks.

- husk camping is a bigger issue for me. Especially now bandits have taken to leaving one single junk item in a husk (so it appears unlooted) to deliberately lure killed players back and then hiding.
Nihimon
LuckyCharms
Nihimon has made clear that he believes that shrine killing is an acceptable strategy…

For the willfully blind:

Nihimon
I will say that if we ever do end up killing folks at a shrine, it will be folks who are consistently regrouping at that shrine after they die only to stage another attack on us. And I sincerely hope Goblinworks gives folks a choice about where they respawn before it ever comes to that.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Flynn Pontis
Nihimon
LuckyCharms
Nihimon has made clear that he believes that shrine killing is an acceptable strategy…

For the willfully blind:

Nihimon
I will say that if we ever do end up killing folks at a shrine, it will be folks who are consistently regrouping at that shrine after they die only to stage another attack on us. And I sincerely hope Goblinworks gives folks a choice about where they respawn before it ever comes to that.

First I do not appreciate your assertion that I am willfully blind that is no way to rebuff my opinion and should not be so blatantly dismissed. I assert that killing some one when they spawn at a shrine is dishonorable at the very least I would also state that huddling around a shrine and taking advantage of peoples reluctance to attack people around shrines as dishonorable as well. I am honestly trying to work with you and the other players in this community to make this a game free of griefers and toxic behavior that will drive people away. And what do I get for my pargraphs of typing? "Your willfully blind" (paraphrasing).
Phyllain
So to all the people saying Golgotha spawn camped people in to quitting the game do you have literally any proof? I don't abide by spawn camping in any context. Husk camping is not spawn camping, if you throw yourself at me over and over again while I loot your body I am going to kill you.
Brighthaven Leader
@Phyllain, I will get Cedar in contact with you, he can explain what happened. It was a few weeks ago.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Midnight
Cheatle for TEO
@Midnight,

If someone kills a gatherer in our area, what is the appropriate response? When do you suggest that we not have them on a KoS list? Do you suggest we aren't suppose to avenge our fallen citizens?

EBA are the people saying things like we have a plan, we've been planning for years, we like our plan.

I am the 6 hours of alpha guy who admits that in Beta Early Enrollment he's flailing around trying things just to see what will happen. I do a lot of things out of simple curiosity. All my best and worst ideas typically start with the words "I wonder what would happen if I…"

Just go with your plan if you think it is serving you.

I'm not calling a KOS list toxic to the game.
Further observation might change that opinion, but for now I don't think it is toxic. It is simply vindictive. People who may wind up on the wrong side of the EBA should understand the level of vindictiveness the EBA has. It is certainly non-zero. Whether it is reasonable or unreasonable is for each player to to judge when they hear examples.

The difference between me and the folks I'm calling toxic is that I actually listened when Caldeathe and his crowd suggested that curbing my behavior might be good for the game, even while Ryan was giving us the go ahead on continuing banditry on Feb 26 right after the Oops We Accidentally Your Settlement incident, and even as Ryan has offered pro-PvP ideas in this thread.

I might even log in and do banditry tonight (though I doubt it), but I'm on my 14th day clean on all characters because I chose to respect some reasonable opinions like Caldeathe's after the BwG fiasco and dialed it back. I can't even fully explain why, except that sometimes I'm just as curious about what will happen when I DON'T do things.

When I watch Nihimon dismiss Caldeathe out of hand, all that comes to mind is… "the smug is strong in this one".

Note, that's not necessarily an insult, and smugness may be the only resource not in short supply in the River Kingdoms. (I blame Pharasma).

TSV are the Eric Cartmanns of the River Kingdoms and when they get heraldry it should have a banner proudly proclaiming "I do what I want!" Though maybe "Respect mah authoritah!" could work, too.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Edam
Midnight
TSV are the Eric Cartmanns of the River Kingdoms and when they get heraldry it should have a banner proudly proclaiming "I do what I want!"

Well they are, as far as I know, the only True Neutral settlement in the game.

So they do sort of have a monopoly on "I do what I want!" alignment wise, and definitely are immune to any criticism about their behavior not being sufficiently goody-goody because TN are not by any means a goody-goody we luv pink fluffy unicorn alignment.
Nihimon
So, I had a long conversation with Rynnik and he said a couple of things that really got me thinking. One of them was so obviously true that I immediately acknowledge it as a pretty serious mistake. The other I was quite resistant to, but I think he was actually right.

First, the really obvious one was that I lost track of who my target audience is. I let myself fall into the trap of talking directly to my enemies, rather than remembering that I should be writing for the benefit of the reader who might be coming here without any knowledge of all the history and trying to get a feel for the cultures in the various organizations. That was a pretty serious mistake, and something I should already know results in bad things.

Second, he really hammered me on the "break their gear" line, and I was extremely resistant to accepting what he was saying. In part, that was because I was already being hammered over it by my enemies. Sun Tzu probably had it right when he said "listen to what your enemies say about you", and yeah I guess I was being too smug.

I really want all those "PvP-averse" players who've had really unpleasant experiences in other PvP games to come to Pathfinder Online. I want PFO to have a lot of the kind of PvP that I've come to really enjoy, and very little of the kind of PvP that makes people feel utterly powerless and want to leave. But most of all I want to be able to protect those people in a way that gives them the sense that they're not powerless, and gives them the time to adjust to something they never thought they'd like, and maybe even to find out that it's more fun than they ever imagined.

I feel personally responsible for some folks like that joining the Everbloom Alliance, and in a way I feel personally responsible - and powerless - for our failure to keep Blackwood Glade from being driven away. It really crushed me to see other Settlements using that as a recruiting pitch.

That sense of powerlessness is brutal, and I'm no paragon. Rynnik is right that I was crossing a line. I didn't want to admit it - and I really didn't want to admit it to Golgotha - but I did. I was wrong.

We will not spawn camp folks to break their gear. That's not the right way to try to overcome that sense of powerlessness. I can't guarantee that no one will ever get killed at a shrine once or twice before everyone realizes they're actually running away, but I can commit to using whatever influence I have to try to make sure folks don't do it on purpose or as a matter of course.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
 
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