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Sincere question: Where and what kind of PvP is allowed?

Tink says Stab
I can understand why you wouldn't want to say that, especially after everything that has happened. It takes a good man to admit that he might have been wrong. You have gained some more of my respect, for what it might be worth.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Nihimon
Thanks, Tink.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
deisum
Nihimon
I really want all those "PvP-averse" players who've had really unpleasant experiences in other PvP games to come to Pathfinder Online. I want PFO to have a lot of the kind of PvP that I've come to really enjoy, and very little of the kind of PvP that makes people feel utterly powerless and want to leave. But most of all I want to be able to protect those people in a way that gives them the sense that they're not powerless, and gives them the time to adjust to something they never thought they'd like, and maybe even to find out that it's more fun than they ever imagined.

First of all, kudos for not only listening to criticism and taking it to heart, but also publicly admitting that criticism had merit. Mad respect for that. It would've been much easier to hand-wave that part away and just say you changed your mind.

As to the quote above, while this notion is definitely admirable, I think it's ultimately a fool's errand. The only way you're going to be able to actually prevent harm to your settlement members is if there is a large group actively controlling the space around them. Since I don't think you'll ever have sufficient population (much less motivation) to form a 'Great Wall of EBA' around your territory, you'll never be able to truly achieve 'safety'. But as you're well aware (and as movies have taught us all), you can sure as hell avenge them.

Hopefully, the game will mature to the point that random gatherers aren't an attractive enough target. At the same time, I really, really think anyone playing this game needs at least some 'exposure therapy' to PvP so as to teach their human bodies that the fight-or-flight hormonal response PvP can elicit isn't really necessary. That, alone, will be far more helpful in empowering the PvP averse.

I'm not trying to suggest you shouldn't retaliate against attacks or drive poachers off your lands. I just think your notion of some sort of protectorate is a heroic fantasy and may cloud your judgement.
tribuzio
deisum
I really, really think anyone playing this game needs at least some 'exposure therapy' to PvP so as to teach their human bodies that the fight-or-flight hormonal response PvP can elicit isn't really necessary.

What do you mean with that phrase?
If you are attacked the responses are "fight-or-flight" or "die". While being killed in PFO is less painful that in EVE (after all here the NPC kill you with regularity) it is not a thing that you should accept passively.

If you mean the hormonal response (adrenaline surge), it wasn't there in EVE and isn't present here in PFO, at least for me.

While I admire Nihimon decision and will do my best to uphold it (after all I am NG as a player [not necessarily as a character]) I doubt it will work in the long run. This is a game where warfare and preying on the helpless is meant to happen and some player will do it.
Ryan speak of using peer pressure to curb that behavior, but peer pressure include killing someone and putting it on the KOS list.
You can't allow to someone that come to your land and kill your people to say "Bandius" and stop all fighting, that would leave in his hands the control of the fights, and the last thing you want to do is to leave the control of the fights in the hands of the guy that has come to you to kill your people.

NRDS (Not Red, Don't Shot) can work if you are willing to work on it, stopping a fight because someone say: "Oh well, now I am losing, let's stop here, I will return another day to kill another few defenseless people." don't.
deisum
tribuzio, you may be an exception to the norm, then. I've met plenty of folks (and was one) who felt the hormonal response (more of a cocktail than just adrenaline), myself included, particularly when being attacked unexpectedly. And the most successful way to reduce or eliminate that response is exposure in a controlled setting.

That doesn't mean don't fight back, that means practice PvP.
tribuzio
deisum
tribuzio, you may be an exception to the norm, then. I've met plenty of folks (and was one) who felt the hormonal response (more of a cocktail than just adrenaline), myself included, particularly when being attacked unexpectedly. And the most successful way to reduce or eliminate that response is exposure in a controlled setting.

That doesn't mean don't fight back, that means practice PvP.

Totally out of the blue? Yes, I get the adrenaline jolt, but it end rapidly.

Seeing it coming, no. And that include knowing that a unknown guy was in the same system or that we were attacking or defending a POS, or doing my 1/10,000 of the damage needed to kill a titan (only once).

Often what I felt was a mild annoyance at "this thing" stopping what I was doing, as building something is more important for me.
Vrel Vusoryn
@LuckyCharms

1) Don't do it if at all possible. Sometimes it happens, recognize it and back off.

2) Nihimon has addressed this. That and I think, personally, you have let yourself get too caught up in the fever pitch that spawn camping is "what we do" in TSV. It's not, but no amount of forum fight is going to make you change your mind.

3) They were overzealous in that the instance I refer to we were in a agreed upon period of "cooling off" on attacks. Again, you are driving this spawn camp thing, but that had nothing to do with us pursuing said bandits trying to drive them out of our area killing them every chance we got which may./may not have broken armor. Bandits will do what they do, and I have not called for them to temper their actions. I will, instead, modify my own in response. We were told the raiding would cool off one day, the very next our people got hit, we responded in kind based on that perceived breach of word.

Through a thread on the PFO boards we find out that our opponents leadership did not effectively communicate to their people which is why they raided us. Mistakes happen.

4)The big point here is that you have not read all of TSV postings everywhere. We don't spawn camp (realizing, again, that it can happen on accident and the right thing is to back off). That said, I separate spawn camping and breaking armor. It is possible to stay away from a shrine and still track an opponent over hexes and kill them enough times their armor breaks. Luck is involved, sure, but it can be done with enough people, good communication and a good idea of where the bandits are trying to run off to.

That said, just because you are not aware of a policy does not mean one does not exist. Equally there is nothing that requires any group to divulge their policies to any other group or individual. What keeps being lost is the fact that we were attacked, aggression thrown at us when we were told it was not going to happen and we only then responded. Add the context that from our viewpoint we had been lied to blatantly and one should see why a strong response, but not a spawn camping one, was undertaken.

5) As you may not be following the other thread on the PFO boards, TSV and EBA policy, when declared on a forum, begins "Our policy on this is…". Aside from that you should take all other statements as that person's view on the topic at hand and realize their view will color their stance when the respective TSV or EBA governing bodies convene.

Again, I doubt you will ever know all policies TSV or the EBA has simply because, as I've told your friend Tigari on the PFO boards, you belong to a group that has declared us foes, even though we cooled off for now. Any expectation that you have of being privy to all policies you should drop as it is unrealistic. Additionally to assume that just because you don't know them they don't exist OR that they automatically take the negative bent/twist is off base as well. I know very little of Golgotha's policies on spawn camping, breaking armor or taunting overwhelmed opponents such that they leave the game. By the tone in this thread and the one occurrence with TEO's Cedar and the BWG incident I should assume the worst I suppose.

Anyway, I hate long posts and if you want to discuss my opinions more we can do so in voices comms. Forum debate leaves out a lot when trying to express views and indeed allows for stances to be manipulated and twisted and malice construed when there is none. Let me know.
General of the Grey
Grey Guard

The Grey Guard is currently looking for adventurers and craftsfolk to join this lore based military company. Based in the great settlement of Phaeros and one of the military companies of the EBA alliance. Visit us today and learn how you can join! Once you register you will have access to the application form to join TSV(Phaeros) and, once accepted, then the Grey Guard.
Flynn Pontis
First off I would like to commend Nihimon for his recent actions, it certainly takes a great degree of character to take a step back and reevaluate. It is something that I wish everyone would do. That said as far as the spawn camping debate goes I believe it has concluded and I don't really feel that it is something that has to be continued at this point. I am more than happy if you feel that this debate is still very much open to talk to you on comms perhaps clarifying my points because let's face it text is such a crappy form of communication.
Nihimon
Vrel
What keeps being lost is the fact that we were attacked, aggression thrown at us when we were told it was not going to happen…

Just to clarify this - and I accept responsibility if I failed to communicate this to Vrel at the time - but we were not told that Golgotha was backing off.

Cheatle told me he was talking to Phyllain about cooling things off. I immediately asked Phaeros to unilaterally cool things off from our side. I informed Phyllain about what we were doing, but didn't share his response with the rest of Phaeros because I didn't want it to antagonize anyone. A couple of days after all this happened, Cheatle told me Golgotha had agreed to cool things off.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Kitsune
I just have to point out one thing:

There was essentially only one Goblinworks response in this entire thread. Evidence that ultimately, the community can figure things out for itself.
 
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