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Sincere question: Where and what kind of PvP is allowed?

Ryan Dancey
Who cares if they take your Towers?

Seriously, I'm asking. You need just 3 Towers for max character power, right? You can't take 3 random Towers on the map the day before you want to do PvP with max skills? You have 3 characters per account. Your crew can't pre-position 3-4 1,000xp alts at random places on the map to grab 3 random Towers when you want them? How much harm can anyone really inflict on you right now? Worst case is you play with Tier 2 gear and no Towers, right?
Brighthaven Leader
We are by no means going to stop recruitment, please stop asking us to put the brakes on recruitment.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Doc
Ryan Dancey
How much harm can anyone really inflict on you right now? Worst case is you play with Tier 2 gear and no Towers, right?

Ryan, I'm thinking ahead. Presumably, the map's status quo isn't going to change in the next month or two unless several hundred people start playing and none of them choose to join EBA. So my point isn't really about towers. The recent tower play is really just a way to forecast what particular player groups and alliances can and are willing to do.

What happens when you add holdings and outposts? Per your blog posts, outposts will be designed so that they get burned down if you are unable to stop the strip mining action while enemies have it occupied. It's no longer about swapping towers, you actually start losing real estate and things you built with resources you gathered, etc. Time and effort is lost. It starts becoming more painful.

One could only presume that if let's say hypothetically, Xelias were able to burn down one of EBA's outposts. EBA could then turn around and come burn down 5 of Xelias outposts. The difference in force projection capabilities would make it totally feasible, and it would be a totally justified response so would assuredly happen in return.

The only logical and sound strategic move by Xelias then would be to not attack EBA and only attack weaker and smaller groups to the north.

But then, I think we were all trying to avoid hitting the small guys so they can try and get on their feet, right? So, what seems more likely to occur to me then is that nobody will attack anybody. If Xelias doesn't attack people, then EBA can't preemptively attack them for no reason without looking like they need to lose their status as "good guy".

It just seems to me that for a game being designed around settlement conflict, you're inadvertently letting the game progress into a state where the meta discourages any of that conflict to occur. And if it does occur, the outcomes will always be predetermined because of the huge disparity in player locations on an almost precise SE to NW gradient across the map.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Things are far from complete or perfect. However, in the coming months holdings and bulk resources will be coming, along with wars and feuds. These alone have significant potential to address many of the issues you mentioned. Will larger groups still probably retain an advantage? Of course, but now they will need to work harder for it and they will need to maintain what they have which will be far more expensive for them than smaller groups. I don't know if it will fix everything, but if the previously stated design intentions are successfully followed through when these systems arrive, such groups will probably not be able to remain self sufficient, which opens up more opportunities to draw different entities into conflict.
Midnight
Another problem is that by trying something like banditry… characters/players/companies/settlements may be Kill-On-Sight and Burn-Their-Settlement just for trying something out. I have a character on a bandit list who has ONE kill who looted ONE item off a husk.

I have no idea if that character will still be hunted for that 6 years from now, and whether that will be used as an excuse to burn down any settlement that character joins over the years. Furthermore, I don't know if that will also be applied to the player, the company and the settlement.

GW has put a lot of control into player hands, and groups might wind up being perma-vindictive.

How long will it be before the best advice we give a new player is don't do anything anywhere or you might rock the boat?
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Duffy Swiftshadow
Things are far from complete or perfect. However, in the coming months holdings and bulk resources will be coming, along with wars and feuds. These alone have significant potential to address many of the issues you mentioned. Will larger groups still probably retain an advantage? Of course, but now they will need to work harder for it and they will need to maintain what they have which will be far more expensive for them than smaller groups. I don't know if it will fix everything, but if the previously stated design intentions are successfully followed through when these systems arrive, such groups will probably not be able to remain self sufficient, which opens up more opportunities to draw different entities into conflict.

Unless the major alliances have rifts from within, the introduction of feuds and wars have no bearing on what Doc is bringing up.

Although I would not be so presumptuous to suggest that TEO stop recruiting, nor that they distance themselves from their meta alliance, Goblin Works should recognize that there is a game community behavior that may prove to be detrimental to the overall health of the game.

The largest guilds do not have to recruit as often or be as unique as smaller guilds. Their shear numbers will attract a good portion of the gaming community without them saying a word. Min Maxers will gravitate to them, because it is "easy mode" to join a behemoth.

The way that EvE prevents this is by making it costly to establish and maintain the behemoth. Those systems are not in place in PFO. EvE also does not force smaller units to join larger units, otherwise they are relegated to remain weak and inconsequential to the big picture.

By making the settlement the primary building block, instead of the company, GW has disincentive participation to groups of players that might otherwise still be active. The settlement as the core of the social organization is not working as planned, and the evidence in that is there are less than 10 settlements that we might consider viable (those not being artificially propped up).

In another thread someone (I think Ryan) was quoted as having said that gaming companies don't discuss game population numbers. That of course is not accurate, for the games who are happy with their numbers. At this very moment (10:47 PM Sunday night) there are 23,000 players logged in EvE. I can log into many other MMOs and see how full their servers are.

The "funnel" is not just punishing those that GW had hoped for, I think that is what Doc is really trying to point to as a problem.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Doc is bringing up points that concern a lot of us. On the one hand, there's nothing wrong with EBA recruiting, because they aren't big enough for the intended mechanics. At the same time, they remain the elephant in the room, and everyone must tip-toe around for fear of being stepped on, even if only by accident.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Edam
Of course a counter argument is EBA only have two of the top 4 or 5 settlements and Hammerfell and BWG are dead in the water at present. Hence it's really Brighthaven (and to some extent Phaeros) people have an issue with. Keepers Pass is probably the biggest craft settlement in game but is well behind settlements like Emerald Lodge in numbers.

Also it seems to me a majority of EBA recruitment is aimed at non-PvP players (as opposed to some other settlements) and hence recruits are craft focused and tend to stay mainly in the South East corner of the map, to the extent that if the raw mats where all available in the southeast a lot of them would never leave at all. I was personally under the impression the recent resource regeneration changes were particularly aimed at getting EBA to leave their home areas more.

In a sense EBA's little southeast corner is becoming a player created PFO equivalent of EVE hisec. Which is sandbox content creation.
Duffy Swiftshadow
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Yes, right now none of this is ideal, but until we know what the bulk resources and building mechanics are like we have no idea what each group will be capable of, how size could impact needs, or how settlements can be hurt in a meaningful way. Threading is another big mechanic that when implemented should help with the economy churn and will ultimately have an effect on relations between groups.

As for Feuds and Wars they are what my group is personally waiting for. We don't feel like managing reputation right now and WoT is clearly not working well for the type of things we would like to do. When those get added we can finally act without having to worry about getting locked out of settlements, I'm sure there are plenty of other folks with the same mentality.

Patience is key here alot of stuff is still in development, feedback is good but we need to avoid making that feedback seem too personal.
Nihimon
Edam
In a sense EBA's little southeast corner is becoming a player created PFO equivalent of EVE hisec. Which is sandbox content creation.

I love it when a plan comes together smile
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
 
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