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Sincere question: Where and what kind of PvP is allowed?

Kakafika
TL;DR: I won't waste my precious time trampling your lawn so long as you don't kill crafters/gatherers on mine. Phaeros knows that its desire to stamp out all banditry in its territory is an impossible goal, but I (we?) believe it is within the design intent for a settlement to strive for it, even if it might be a sub-optimal strategy.

I am a member of Phaeros, not privy to all high-level discussions (though Phaeros welcomes member input for all policies).
The following is simply my thoughts on why the recent offensive up north was started, and why I chose to participate; as a Phaerite, I don't do anything unless I want to. Other Phaerites, including the leadership, may have completely different reasons for taking action.

Do not attack domestic gatherers and crafters.

I was writing a long-winded post about how I, a Phaerite, reconcile my love for non-consensual PvP (as both victim and aggressor) with Phaeros' policies on different types of PvP/competition, but a lot of policy has yet to be set. A lot depends on how the devs implement the upcoming mechanics. I think we should expect a lot of change in how the game is played over the next 6 months, and groups will set and adjust policies as things develop.

One thing I am reasonably sure of is that Phaeros considers banditry a hostile act that jeopardizes the realization of a fundamental goal of Phaeros.

Every group is going to have that as a goal to a certain extent, but Phaeros in particular aims for exceptional levels of safety in domestic territory. Instead of taking the more cost-effective option and just gathering more resources, I spent the last week preparing for and doing PvP for several hours every night, and a few during the day. Even when enemies stopped showing up for several nights, I continued to stand around, listening on comms for hours, doing nothing (instead of gathering, PvE, etc) because as an able citizen of Phaeros, I see helping to realize that goal as one of my responsibilities.

I don't expect 100% safety (though I haven't heard of any banditry since the offensive began), but I wouldn't be surprised if in 6 months we are among the safest places in the River Kingdoms. To that end, we restrict our own members' behavior, we utilize diplomacy to make deals for support and non-aggression, and we consider it a primary function of Phaeros to respond to any banditry at the settlement level.

If you consider that a significant number of Phaerites joined because they intended to make a safe place in which their friends, spouses, children, and parents could play the game and roleplay comfortably, it's not hard to see why we are so willing to 'waste' an inordinately large amount of time and resources responding to banditry in our territory.

When you kill a non-combat character near Phaeros, you've probably just killed somebody's mother; a lot of people are going to respond to a call-to-arms.

Other than banditry, I think you can expect a tit-for-tat response for hostile actions. In the past we've made tower ownership deals with Golgotha, and I expect we'd be willing to do so again and with other groups that are interested. So long as you don't jeopardize our settlement's existence, we won't jeopardize yours. I won't, at least; it's important to note that Phaeros does not pressure anybody to do anything. Leadership makes a case for an action to be taken, and it happens if enough people volunteer to see it through.

Phaeros is intended to be a True Neutral settlement. I wouldn't be surprised if my fellow Phaerites regard me as the most Chaotic voice in the group. Some Phaerites regard it as a point of honor to never take a rep hit on a non-combatant; I have no such aspirations (if you are from an enemy group, I might kill you and take your stuff; if you are a persistent poacher that has been warned of the consequences, I might kill you and take your stuff). In my mind, the biggest thing holding the diverse playstyles of our True Neutral settlement together is a strict expectation of courteous behavior to all PFO players (and a culture of mutual respect in internal discussions where we might passionately disagree with each other).

I expect that as development continues and the game population increases, banditry will become a more common occurrence and be accepted as a fact-of-life in the River Kingdoms. I don't expect Phaeros' stance on banditry to change. I am pleased to say that Phaeros leadership already patiently but bluntly explains to new recruits that they will be killed unexpectedly at home, that this is part of how the game is played, and that we consider it a primary settlement function to exact severe vengeance for it. That is how we play the game =)

Sorry, this post still ended up being long smile
Brighthaven Leader
Some of you are bringing up legitimate concerns, and some of you are just outright complaining. I tend to agree with Duffy on this, and basically, again, we don't know how the rules are going to play out and until we do we can't make any big decisions. Furthermore, EBA is not going to stop recruiting, once you stop recruiting you invite stagnation, stagnation leads death of your company/settlement/alliance. No one should ever stop recruiting.

Also, I realize that our size concerns people, but I am over here from other sandboxed games telling my people we just aren't that big, and unless we keep up, when the flood gates are released we will drown. We might seem big, but our alliance is extremely small when you consider where GW is taking this game.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Nihimon
Kakafika
Sorry, this post still ended up being long…

Nah, I could listen to that all day smile
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Tuoweit
Doc
Tuoweit , so you either didn't read anything I posted, or ignored it, so I guess that is fair. I already basically outlined everything you mentioned in my first post and then followed up.

1. We don't do banditry any more. Haven't done that in like a month.
2. We can't do PvP with Golgotha because they are 5 times as big as us. For practicality standpoint, you don't pick a fight with somebody who is only 4 hexes away and outnumbers you 5:1. Is that really your advice?
3. I mentioned the possibility of totally moving away from the Aragon-Golgotha connection, but then as I pointed out, that makes the current map imbalance even worse than it is now.

Keep in mind, I don't really want to pick fights with the small settlements in the north because I feel like they should be left to try and get their shit together. Funny how I didn't need a the tower NAP to come to that conclusion. So, I focused most of my attention towards EBA in the beginning because they can take care of themselves. I think that is why Golgotha took that route as well. It just turns out the only opponent we feel that we can make a go at that is tough enough to not be negatively impacted by warfare - is too big to ever beat by anyone else in the game. That's kind of what I'm getting at here.

a lot less emotionally impactful than jumping them from stealth and mocking them afterwards.

Where did that come from? Why do you have to be like that? I've never mocked anyone in game. And again, we don't do banditry anymore.

I did read your post, in its entirety. You mentioned you had tried banditry and found the reaction to it quite harsh, I offered a way to soften that reaction. I haven't personally experienced your particular brand of banditry, so the last part was just a contrasting example. My intent was not to claim that you did that.

On the other points it's apparent to me that we have fundamental disagreements/different perceptions of the current state of things, and I shouldn't derail and/or heat up this constructive thread to discuss those, so I won't.

I really appreciate that you are not looking to cause problems for smaller settlements struggling to find their legs, and I'm glad you didn't need the NAP which was proactively created to ward off that sort of thing from those who might not have been as understanding as yourself.
Edam
Part of the issue is just different perspectives.

For example some bandits leave a single item in a husk so it does not show as looted and wait for the owner to come back (this is known to happen because on occasions when the owner returns with a party to the husk they find a single low value item like one essence left).

Now:
- some people see this as reprehensible griefing
- other people see this as canny and clever game play to get another kill and potentially more loot

It really depends on your attitude to the game.
Phyllain
Asking EBA to stop recruit is silly. If Golgotha was the biggest organization in the game I wouldn't stop recruiting, no one would. On the other side when "the flood gates open" if they ever do, there are a lot of people that will just join the biggest group on the server.

When the numbers are small, like they are now, they matter even more. when its a fight of 6 against 10 those 4 extra players make it an unwinnable fight. when its 100 vs 96 4 people stop mattering as much. What a lot of people, myself included, are worried about is that the EBA will just create the big blue doughnut and strangle the game in its infancy. Because as it stands no one can actually fight them. Even if the rest of the server teamed up to take them on, which it isn't going to do, it still wouldn't be enough. With no mechanic making larger numbers sub optimal in any way there is no reason to not just take everyone who wants to join.

Who knows maybe in the coming months their numbers will dwindle and the rest of the map will up its recruiting. This would surprise me greatly.
Brighthaven Leader
Yea, its called meaningful choices with how you train.

As it stands we might have to send people to be members of other settlements within the EBA. Once training gets really focused and unique people will flock to other settlements based on theme.

Phyllain, that is part of the reason why we are talking now.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Midnight
Kakafika
we consider it a primary settlement function to exact severe vengeance for it. That is how we play the game =)


Frankly, THAT has turned out to be the most toxic part of the game, for players who might dare to try every aspect of the game to engage in INFORMED crowdforging.

And this is why the devs might as well just dispose of the rep system. Perma-vindictive players and player organizations are far more relevant than any game mechanic.

I'm really glad I have unplayed max xp characters that can quietly join Brighthaven. I can't imagine why anyone would continue paying subscriptions on characters who actually tried to play all aspects of the game to engage in INFORMED crowdforging, given the perma-vindictiveness of parts of the community.

I doubt anyone would have guessed that the anti-PvP crowd would be the most toxic part of this game that would result in subscriptions lapsing at the end of this month.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Tyncale
If I am letting my subscriptions lapse then that will have nothing to do with what I would call birth throes of a game with territorial conflict. So many game-systems still missing, one of them being able to siege a settlement and actually being able to bring down a behemoth a notch or two, with a concerted effort. Things may be lopsided now, but balance will come. If nothing else, some out of game group will find the whole situation interesting and enter en masse and throw things out of whack.

Hell, maybe Thod will rise to the occassion and we will learn of King Theodems Evil Twin "Homer" who will unite all the supressed lands and turn the peaceful Emerald Lodge into a buzzing, throbbing Machine of War, gearing up to go to War to the oppressive and decadent South!

For all I know Brighthaven and Phaeros could be bristling with Spies and Sleepers already, dormant untill the right mechanics are in and the right time is there. It's not like this is a game where you can not attack someone in your company or from your Alliance…

Safe-haven? I'd be looking over my shoulder if I lived in Phaeros. smile

Or if all else fails and no natural shifts will occur, GW will turn a few knobs, a few people will cry foul and then it's business as usual: developing a game that is still in its infancy.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Brighthaven Leader
@Midnight, yep got all of the names of them, thank you for contributing to our numbers until I kick you out. smile

You can't fault someone for protecting themselves and then putting you on a KoS list, that is just basic sandbox etiquette.

@Tyncale, you are probably right.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
 
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