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Stealth

Ryan Dancey
I'm investigating this. There was a bug filed 11 months ago, and it is marked as fixed and closed, but we're going to take another look and see if this is really fixed, or if we need to change some of the math to make this do what we want it to do.

One issue though is that people do think it should work "better", "faster". However we can't make this work "really well" for new characters or there won't be a reason to keep improving the Feats over time. If you get 80% of the benefit within 30 days, I think that it will become one of those "must have" things (because it will be cheap) but beyond that nobody will ever interact with the Feats unless they have to for prerequisites.
Hobson Fiffledown
Thanks for looking into that, Ryan. We've gotten a lot of snippets since then about stealth:perception (working like we want, not working like we want, was fixed, maybe wasn't fixed) but nothing concrete-ish.

With a proper progression of stealth:perception, I don't think there will be an early sweet spot (benefit to cost) to settle into within the first 30 days (although, I can already see your reasoning on that being quoted over in the MoO-Suffer discussion). As far as a PvE tool goes, we can already get close enough to mobs to melee on the first attack at very low stealth levels. If there's never going to be an alpha or spiked dps stealth attack, then that's about as PvE good as it gets already.
This space for rent.
Dreamslinger
I wouldn't mind so much if Stealth is completely countered by someone spending a similar amount on Perception if the Perception user had to actively be using their Perception (with some drawbacks) to do so. The table top version of game has the concept of active vs. passive perception checks, it would seem to make sense to do the same here.

A character skilled in stealth should be able to get the drop on characters with high perception if that character is busy gathering, sprinting, or fighting. If that same perceptive character is making a point of being vigilant he should be very hard to catch unawares.
Edam
Dreamslinger
I wouldn't mind so much if Stealth is completely countered by someone spending a similar amount on Perception if the Perception user had to actively be using their Perception (with some drawbacks) to do so. The table top version of game has the concept of active vs. passive perception checks, it would seem to make sense to do the same here.

A character skilled in stealth should be able to get the drop on characters with high perception if that character is busy gathering, sprinting, or fighting. If that same perceptive character is making a point of being vigilant he should be very hard to catch unawares.

That could work though may be a programming nightmare.

Other things already suggested that are good:
- Perception should get a penalty in the opposed test so you need several ranks higher perception to counter a particular stealth
- movement speed should definitely increase at higher stealth

Some more thoughts:
- higher stealth could unlock feats. For example at stealth 10 unlock a feat that allows casting beneficial buffs and heals while remaining stealthed
- some compromise improvement in minimap invisibilty so that stealth helps more than now but in terms of the "cheat" issue a hacker might get a slight advantage but nothing substantial
Kitsune
I'll add a snippit from my rant over here:

I expect that if a character has 150 Stealth and his opponent has zero perception, the stealther should be able to get within 20m to his target before becoming "shadowy" and visible on the minimap. Likewise, if a stealther had 300 Stealth and the perceptionist had 150 Perception, the same distances should be applicable. Yes, those are my expectations, and I believe they are perfectly reasonable.

Additionally, I'd like to invest in a feat (with high minimum Stealth skill requirements!) that, when fully trained, allows you to move at speeds close-to or equal-to normal walking and running speeds. I mean, to the point where running in stealth is just as fast out of stealth, if you have trained this other feat to max. Perhaps maybe take some sort of stealth penalty while running (which would make total sense), but I honestly don't like that idea. C'mon, give us a bone - don't nerf something that's not even implemented yet. smile
Elmin Sterro
Kitsune
I'll add a snippit from my rant over here:

I expect that if a character has 150 Stealth and his opponent has zero perception, the stealther should be able to get within 20m to his target before becoming "shadowy" and visible on the minimap. Likewise, if a stealther had 300 Stealth and the perceptionist had 150 Perception, the same distances should be applicable. Yes, those are my expectations, and I believe they are perfectly reasonable.

Additionally, I'd like to invest in a feat (with high minimum Stealth skill requirements!) that, when fully trained, allows you to move at speeds close-to or equal-to normal walking and running speeds. I mean, to the point where running in stealth is just as fast out of stealth, if you have trained this other feat to max. Perhaps maybe take some sort of stealth penalty while running (which would make total sense), but I honestly don't like that idea. C'mon, give us a bone - don't nerf something that's not even implemented yet. smile

Quote re-purposed from the other thread.
Kitsune
More frustratingly, even escaping an enemy (because, let's face it, in a 1-vs-1 battle, the Rogue will rarely win), choosing to slip into Stealth is pointless. At the current speed of stealth, it's impossible to get away. Your foe just needs to keep running straight, and there's absolutely zero chance of slipping away from one side or the other. And that's also partially attributed to the pathetic distance-shortening that Stealth skill gives, even at mid-game levels of it.

I was actually thinking about this last night. Rather than having stealth mode restrict us to a specific set movement speed, it might make more sense to separate movement speed control and stealth toggling such that the movement speed you have active applies a penalty to stealth skill that increases as you shift to higher speeds. Essentially replicating the way stealth works in the table-top game, which makes pretty logical sense. Granted, that still won't be very effective until the current stealth versus perception distance problem is solved.
 
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