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Stealth

SDShannonS
If your character model is being displayed by the client, you need to be on the minimap. If you are not, it just encourages people to run a hack that adds you to the minimap since the client is receiving your location.
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit, SP 1
32 GB RAM
Dual Crossfire'd AMD Radeon R9 200 video cards
Kitsune
SDShannonS
If your character model is being displayed by the client, you need to be on the minimap. If you are not, it just encourages people to run a hack that adds you to the minimap since the client is receiving your location.

Yup. That's what I was getting at.
Kitsune
Okay! So, we did a little more stealth testing last night, but nothing very extensive (need to do that ASAP). Results:

Stealthing with 70 Stealth around groups of NPCs seemed very good (maybe too good, I question?). I was able to get close to resource nodes and collect them, and I was able to get close enough for most ranged attacks. But then as I was doing it more and more, I was noticing that the range of stealth vs. NPCs was something close to like 10 meters. I will try to get a more accurate number later this weekend, if I can get another chance to play (vacation).

Now the strange part: I heard from other players with 10 Stealth, and they were able to do similar. I will have to do more testing to compare 70 Stealth vs 10 Stealth.

Stealth vs Players was possibly very slightly improved, I think. However, it was still terrible. With 70 Stealth and 40 Perception, I had an EXACT equivalent "minimum visible distance" to another player with 48 Stealth and 30 Perception. I'm saying that as we backed up from each other, we would both disappear to each other at the EXACT same time - maybe less than 0.5 meter variance.

That same person with 30 Perception then backed up and watched me stealth and Nihimon stealth. Nihimon had 10 Stealth and I had 70 of course. The difference in visibility range was literally about 2 meters. In other words, the "perceiver" would watch as I back up until I disappear, and then I would stop. Nihimon would do the same test along the same path. The point in which Nihimon stops would be almost within arm's reach of me.

So, the calculation of stealth vs. perception definitely seems a bit askew. Best supporting evidence is the test with Nihimon and "that other guy" (I'm really sorry! I forget names fast!).

Again, I'll try to do more testing as soon as I can.
Lee Hammock
Awesome, thanks Kitsune!
Gog
Untrained stealth vs mobs is good enough to successfully harvest while stealthed when a monster is literally right on the node.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=332rr4m&s=8#.VAE5lGMl9FM
^This is Dak (Charlie George). RIP <Guurzak>
Tigari
I think the fact we show up on the mini-map at all is a flawed system. Your giving people a 360Deg. radar. This should require a spell of sorts.
Kitsune
Tigari
I think the fact we show up on the mini-map at all is a flawed system. Your giving people a 360Deg. radar. This should require a spell of sorts.

This has been covered time and time again, but not that many times on these forums (so I won't hold it against you). The radar is absolutely needed. Why?

People cheat. People hack. People are dishonest.

Any time that the client loads a character that is within range, the data is sent to your PC. It would not take much effort for cheaters/hackers/etc. to snag this data and make their own minimap of sorts. Such a minimap would then be a 100% advantage over every honest player in the game.

And there's other, less critical reasons, but I'll not even bother with those. Because the reason I list above is clearly enough.
Tigari
Oh I get it's a hackable thing. Sorry, I posted it hastely, I was also in charge of children who where hungry. I was going to add that we need to find a way to fix this or a different system.. I Understand just removing us from the minimap will just lead to hacks adding us back on.
Wyldethorne
My testing of Stealth(@ 135 skill) showed that I could get ~10m(possibly a tad closer to white nameplate) to most npcs up to Orange nameplate. Against PCs, I didn't seem to get closer than ~20m without being spotted, regardless of their perception scores(solo tested with three different toons of varying perception skill: Base 10, 40, and 70). When performing the same test as Kitsune and Nihimon(on the Sotterhill bridge), my character with 135 stealth was able to get ~5 to 8 m further on than the toon at Stealth 10.
Kitsune
Wyldethorne
My testing of Stealth(@ 135 skill) showed that I could get ~10m(possibly a tad closer to white nameplate) to most npcs up to Orange nameplate. Against PCs, I didn't seem to get closer than ~20m without being spotted, regardless of their perception scores(solo tested with three different toons of varying perception skill: Base 10, 40, and 70). When performing the same test as Kitsune and Nihimon(on the Sotterhill bridge), my character with 135 stealth was able to get ~5 to 8 m further on than the toon at Stealth 10.

Well then, it does seem like the variation between "high stealth" and "low stealth" against players is particularly negligible. And possibly the same with Perception, too (but we haven't seen "really high" Perception yet, so hard to judge).

Against NPCs, it seems that something might also be broken, considering the reports of players with "low stealth" being able to sneak into the 10m-20m range of NPCs. The difference between "low stealth" and "high stealth" in this case also seems particularly negligible.

On the debate of "how close should stealth be effective":
What if a Rogue with ~100 Stealth was able to sneak close enough to a target (with 10 Perception) to be able to open combat with his shortbow (20m, I believe)?

I know the devs have posted formulas and such on the Paizo forum, but that was indeed a while ago. I'd like to get some realistic examples of what their goals are for Stealth.

And perception. Because if "everyone" can take Perception, it will automatically become something that's required for all combat classes.
 
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