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Stealth

Hedrik Holiday
So to determine what Perception is needed to make the distance be 100% we have (from the post about Alpha 4, so surely it has been changed)

(Perception - Stealth + 300) x 0.15% + 10% = 100%
(Perception - Stealth + 300) x 0.15% = 90 %
(Perception - Stealth + 300) = 90 / 0.15 = 600
Perception - Stealth = 300
Perception = Stealth + 300

Really? 30 skill points more than the opposed Stealth?
And, to see how much each Stealth point affects the distance:

((Perception - Stealth + 300) x 0.15% + 10%) - ((Perception - (Stealth + 10) + 300) x 0.15% + 10%) = dx%
((Perception - Stealth + 300) x 0.15%) - ((Perception - (Stealth + 10) + 300) x 0.15%) = dx%
((Perception - Stealth + 300) - (Perception - (Stealth + 10) + 300)) x 0.15% = dx%
((Perception - Stealth + 300) - (Perception - (Stealth + 10) + 300)) = dx% / 0.15%
( - Stealth ) - ( - (Stealth + 10) = dx% / 0.15%
- Stealth + Stealth - 10 = dx% / 0.15%
( - 10) x 0.15% = dx%
dx% = -1.5%

OK, fairly obvious in hindsight. So, minimum is 10%, maximum is unspecified (infinite - well, there is a maximum Perception but I don't know what it is), every point of Stealth gets you a reduction of 1.5% against the same Perception, and to overcome Stealth completely takes 30 points more of Perception then the Stealth it is overcoming.

I wonder what they've changed the formula to be?
Kitsune
Now that I think of it, NPCs don't respond to you until they notice you (e.g. get into close enough range, or otherwise you attack them, of course). I wonder if the stealth-vs-perception calculations are based on this aggro distance, as opposed to stealth-vs-perception with players is based on (effectively) maximum draw distance?

Could that be why we can get so dang close to NPCs?
KarlBob
Kitsune
Now that I think of it, NPCs don't respond to you until they notice you (e.g. get into close enough range, or otherwise you attack them, of course). I wonder if the stealth-vs-perception calculations are based on this aggro distance, as opposed to stealth-vs-perception with players is based on (effectively) maximum draw distance?

Could that be why we can get so dang close to NPCs?
Slight digression: Sometimes they don't notice you even when you attack them (well, their group). If you can kill an enemy with one Overdraw shot from a long bow, then the rest of the group won't notice that one of them suddenly sprouted an arrow and keeled over dead.
Kitsune
KarlBob
Kitsune
Now that I think of it, NPCs don't respond to you until they notice you (e.g. get into close enough range, or otherwise you attack them, of course). I wonder if the stealth-vs-perception calculations are based on this aggro distance, as opposed to stealth-vs-perception with players is based on (effectively) maximum draw distance?

Could that be why we can get so dang close to NPCs?
Slight digression: Sometimes they don't notice you even when you attack them (well, their group). If you can kill an enemy with one Overdraw shot from a long bow, then the rest of the group won't notice that one of them suddenly sprouted an arrow and keeled over dead.

Yup. Which I honestly think is kinda cool. The only person that likely knew where you were shooting from is the guy that's on the ground.

It would be awesome if the art department could come up with an animation for all the NPCs that showed them kinda looking around, wondering, "Where the heck did that come from??"
Gog
Everyone can take a little bit of perception. Everyone can take a little bit of anything. If you want to train more than a few points into it, you're going to need to raise the relevant attributes.

Rogues will have Perception because they have to, and Clerics will have Perception because they have Wisdom. Wisdom Crafters, likewise (Forester/ Scavenger/ Apothecary/ Iconographer). Anybody else, not so much- add druids and maybe monks to that list when they're implemented.
^This is Dak (Charlie George). RIP <Guurzak>
foxglove
Hedrik Holiday
So to determine what Perception is needed to make the distance be 100% we have
(….)
Really? 30 skill points more than the opposed Stealth?
max perception vs no stealth makes stealth literally useless.

But the extremes are not very interesting. The important bit is 55% for stealth=per, and how expensive it is to get closer (40% for a 100 point difference). Chameleon and Illusionist don't seem very powerful atm.

I wnder: at 55% if you see someone running straight towards you, how much time do you have before they can spot you? (Do you even have time to sneak away?)

The ability to hide from mobs to go afk to check on a crying baby is valuable, but for actual gameplay stealth currently seems very weak and rogues seem not have enough other strengths to compensate. (Arguing that rogues are just as underpowered in tabletop is not acceptable as an argument).
Foxglove - of Pathfinder University (PFU/Riverbank)
Silkworm - of Phoenix Industries (TEO/Brighthaven)
On these boards I never speak for TEO, only for myself or PFU. Contact me if you want to hold a guest lecture for PFU
Kitsune
foxglove
I wnder: at 55% if you see someone running straight towards you, how much time do you have before they can spot you? (Do you even have time to sneak away?)
In my experience so far, based on looking at the max draw distances and figuring roughly half of that… Not really. Players are drawn really far away, and 55% of that is also very far.

foxglove
The ability to hide from mobs to go afk to check on a crying baby is valuable, but for actual gameplay stealth currently seems very weak and rogues seem not have enough other strengths to compensate. (Arguing that rogues are just as underpowered in tabletop is not acceptable as an argument).
(emphasis mine)

I agree completely. Also, I agree completely.
Nihimon
I would love to see Stealth gradually decrease detection range over time if you stand still and don't use any actions.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Gog
And then start increasing again after a while as you start to get itchy, fidgety, and bored?
^This is Dak (Charlie George). RIP <Guurzak>
foxglove
Kitsune
foxglove
The ability to hide from mobs to go afk to check on a crying baby is valuable, …

I agree completely. Also, I agree completely.

I'll admit I was thinking of you. Been there myself a few years ago, and WoW stealth was perfect for that.
But with the 3rd kid it got to the point where for a year I only played turn-based or games that could be paused with a single keystroke.

so.. umm..where were we? stealth sucks unless we force everyone to play at really crappy graphics settings?
Foxglove - of Pathfinder University (PFU/Riverbank)
Silkworm - of Phoenix Industries (TEO/Brighthaven)
On these boards I never speak for TEO, only for myself or PFU. Contact me if you want to hold a guest lecture for PFU
 
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