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Stealth

Azure_Zero
There is NO Sneak Attack.

Goblinworks has stated that Stealth will NOT allow you to get Melee range to anyone.
So no Assasin's Creed type sneak attack, as they know it is game breaking and a grief tool
Nihimon
Melien
How does Sneak Attack work when you can't even get close enough (Without being spotted) to put a blade in the target?

Azure_Zero
There is NO Sneak Attack.

Sorry, Azure, there is Sneak Attack. There's no Backstab.

Sneak Attack works by letting the Rogue treat a target as if that target had Flat-Footed, even if it doesn't. If you look at the Physical Attacks for Effects that capitalize on Flat-Footed, you'll get a feel for how powerful that will be (e.g. Shank - Bleeding 30 if Target is Flat-Footed). If you look at the Rogue Features, you'll see the various ways Rogues have to give themselves Sneak Attack.

Most relevant to the Evade & Stealth discussion is the Cut-Throat, who gains Sneak Attack as long as the target isn't targeting the Rogue.

Stealth doesn't do what it does in other games; it doesn't let you approach within melee range of another Character and then deliver a near-fatal blow. It does give you the opportunity to force your opponent to drop you as a target. Maybe I'm the only one, but I see a lot of value in that.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Azure_Zero
Oh, must of missed that information from somewhere.
Melien
Thanks Nihimon, for that great explanation.

It also explains a lot about why stealth works the way it does.
Nightdrifter
Sneak attack adds +10 to base damage and has done so for many months.
Nightdrifter
Since I didn't get a chance to play last bit of alpha smile I figured I'd double check that sneak attack still works in EE.

Using Opportunist 1 I can confirm that sneak attack adds +10 base damage when the target has opportunity. Tested using basic spear attacks on goblins/omega wolves/bandit recruits. Needed to verify their physical resistance first and the numbers are all consistent with them each having 10 physical resistance.

As an aside, the testing also appears to confirm that the +40 base damage added in Basic Spear Exploit when the target has opportunity stacks with the +10 from sneak attack.
Reiv
While i'm generally unsatisfied with how stealth works in PFO, I've started getting it in my head that this is NOT like the cookie cutter MMO's currently available. Even with a massive amount of stealth, you should not be able to be completely invisible and also stand a foot away from your mark in their line of sight. That always bugged me about WoW, and I played a rogue. That being said, the only thing that bugs me about stealth in PFO is closing the distance between yourself and your mark before or just after they spot you. You can close distance by hitting sprint, but that breaks stealth and allows the rest of the world to openly perceive you at 100% perception. Even in table top RPG's, you used the environment to your advantage, or you stayed behind your target, because lets face it, unless you are a beholder you shouldn't be looking behind your head anyways! If there were a cone for perception for the direction you are facing, that would fix a lot of the issue for closing the gap for a rogue who is circling around you.
Kitsune
Reiv
While i'm generally unsatisfied with how stealth works in PFO, I've started getting it in my head that this is NOT like the cookie cutter MMO's currently available. Even with a massive amount of stealth, you should not be able to be completely invisible and also stand a foot away from your mark in their line of sight. That always bugged me about WoW, and I played a rogue.

I totally agree with your statement, and I don't ever want Stealth to get "that close." But it certainly needs to be closer than it is now, considering we currently don't (and possibly 'never' will) have advanced Line-of-Sight detection that would make the tabletop version of Stealth a better realization. The fact is, we can't utilize certain objects or circumstances (including subject's facing) to approach a target as close as one might be able to in the tabletop game. Therefore, to substitute, I would propose shorter stealth detection distances.

As I've mentioned elsewhere in other threads (and possibly this one?), one of the biggest problems is that Perception seems to be somewhat broken, such that moderate amounts of Perception (60-80 skill) versus zero trained perception yields nearly the same ranges of detecting a stealthed character. That's broken, if you ask me.

Reiv
That being said, the only thing that bugs me about stealth in PFO is closing the distance between yourself and your mark before or just after they spot you. You can close distance by hitting sprint, but that breaks stealth and allows the rest of the world to openly perceive you at 100% perception. Even in table top RPG's, you used the environment to your advantage, or you stayed behind your target, because lets face it, unless you are a beholder you shouldn't be looking behind your head anyways! If there were a cone for perception for the direction you are facing, that would fix a lot of the issue for closing the gap for a rogue who is circling around you.

Yeah, as for closing-the-gap, I would argue that Rogues are too slow on their feet during combat. For having such insignificant armor bonuses, I would expect them to be much better at dancing around their opponents in combat, avoiding hits and otherwise jumping from target to target as necessary. Perhaps whatever solution is implemented for this problem might also be used to close-the-gap?
Ortallus
Kitsune
Yeah, as for closing-the-gap, I would argue that Rogues are too slow on their feet during combat. For having such insignificant armor bonuses, I would expect them to be much better at dancing around their opponents in combat, avoiding hits and otherwise jumping from target to target as necessary. Perhaps whatever solution is implemented for this problem might also be used to close-the-gap?

I'd love to see a feat such as mobility, and one such as 'shot on the run'. The prior allowing you to move at non-walk speed without incurring Opportunity (Though sprint would still give opportunity). Shot on the run could perhaps allow you to walk and shoot your bow at the same time.
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Kradlum Kabal
Evasion, Balestra and <insert short bow feat with 10m evasion here> working consistently would help fix our lack of nimbleness. Removing rooting from short bow feats would also help (I'm not so sure rooting should be removed for longbow feats.)
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