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Stealth

Kitsune
Speaking of which, I would almost argue that Stealth, once up in the 200+ range, should allow a rogue to go unnoticed close enough to a target with zero perception to be able to use most shortbow feats… so that'd be like 20m.

I think 20m is reasonable for someone that dedicated to the art of sneakery.

Edit/Add: But if the target has a fair amount of Perception (e.g. 50+), then that stealth range should be increased to Distant Shot range (what is that, 30m?).
Reiv
The only person who should be seeing a rogue to be completely honest, is a cleric. Their prime ability is perception, which translates into wisdom for their class, as it does dexterity for ours. A rogue should be able to ambush his/her mark by getting as close as possible to open up a surprise attack because they are flat footed. Opening up with a large attack, then following up with something debilitating like Knockdown can put them in the hurt-locker really fast. But that is only possible if you are close enough to swing your weapon. Some suggestions for how to close the gap between a mark:

1) Some kind of ranged Sap ( Stun ) ability if the target is flat footed and not in combat.
2) A dash ability that is targeted. Like the warrior Charge ability, but maybe much faster since rogues aren't hampered by heavy armor and weapons.
3) Some kind of Blink for rogues that only works from stealth. That would instantly take the rogue from being in stealth to their target even if they get close enough to be seen. Of course there would have to be some kind of range factor involved, but 10-20 yards would cover that distance nicely.
4) Change the way stealth graphics look ( Opacity ) based off of perception so that it blends better with the background. Being completely invisible would be broken. But a rogue going against a target with 20 perception should not be able to see a rogue as well as one with 120 perception. I think this would be one of the best soloutions, as it allows the rogue to be stealthed and close the distance more legitimately based off of other characters perception vs their own level of stealth.

The only thing that bleeds more than a rogue is a wizard who isn't using some kind of armor buff. Giving a target the ability to see a rogue well before they can get within range to be effective gives any ranged type class plenty of time to take half your health away before you are close enough, or a warrior / plate class the time it takes to charge you and now the element of surprise is gone.
Daeglin
@Reiv Re: 2 and 3 above. Balestra will do a targeted charge now, range 12m I believe. Shorter range then Charge or the martial weapon closers but faster cooldown, lower stamina cost, and no power cost. Could take Charge as well for more flexibility. I don't think there is a knife closer unfortunately. Like all the Charge/Bullrush/closers/evasions, irregular terain frequently cause malfunctions.

I can stealth within range of PvE mobs to Balestra from Stealth directly into melee combat. Doesn't work vs PCs and may not work vs mobs once they fix mob perception in next patch.
Good… Bad… I'm the guy with the bow.
Daeglin
Two things to try and stretch a bit more out of Stealth is the use of camouflage in main view and on the minimap. For example, Stealth within a bush, against a tree or a structure wall will contribute to making those focused only on their heads up display miss your presence until closer. If they glance at the minimap, it's a giveaway. But it's possible to camouflage your icon on the minimap among other yellow icons - nodes or other PCs. The zoom level on the minimap will affect the success of this. The combination of a bush on a node makes a good hiding spot in both respects.
Good… Bad… I'm the guy with the bow.
Kitsune
Reiv
…Opening up with a large attack, then following up with something debilitating like Knockdown can put them in the hurt-locker really fast.
Starting to sound like World of Warcraft. smile

Reiv
But that is only possible if you are close enough to swing your weapon….
Okay, really, really starting to sound like World of Warcraft…

Reiv
1) Some kind of ranged Sap ( Stun ) ability if the target is flat footed and not in combat.
Okay, how much like World of Warcraft do you want this game to be? smile

Reiv
2) A dash ability that is targeted. Like the warrior Charge ability, but maybe much faster since rogues aren't hampered by heavy armor and weapons.
Okay, now there's a reasonable idea.

Reiv
3) Some kind of Blink for rogues that only works from stealth. That would instantly take the rogue from being in stealth to their target even if they get close enough to be seen. Of course there would have to be some kind of range factor involved, but 10-20 yards would cover that distance nicely.
Eh, personally sounds a bit too magical for the roguetype, if you ask me.

Reiv
4) Change the way stealth graphics look ( Opacity ) based off of perception so that it blends better with the background. Being completely invisible would be broken. But a rogue going against a target with 20 perception should not be able to see a rogue as well as one with 120 perception. I think this would be one of the best soloutions, as it allows the rogue to be stealthed and close the distance more legitimately based off of other characters perception vs their own level of stealth.
Doesn't change the minimap, or the fact that you're loaded by the client. See all the comments around here about cheating/hacking/intercepting-data. If they're loaded by others' clients, they should be treated as 100% visible, in my book.

Edit: my post sounds a bit harsh, please don't be too offended? smile
Kradlum Kabal
My WoW main was a rogue. I want to play a rogue, but I don't want it to be too much like a WoW rogue, otherwise I might as well still be playing WoW.

I levelled Rogue 6 yesterday. I could easily be Rogue 8 but I mostly haven't bothered to take stealth (it's currently not useful, maybe more useful after Thursday), perception (I haven't been involved in enough PvP for it to have been any use) or power (I don't find the maneuvers to be of any use at all in PvE). If 3 of the main feats to level rogues have little use, the class needs a bit of work.
Honest Snotbad's Travelling Traders. Purveyors of fine goods since 2015.
Stoneroot Glade - Home of the brave.
Kitsune
kradlum
My WoW main was a rogue. I want to play a rogue, but I don't want it to be too much like a WoW rogue, otherwise I might as well still be playing WoW.
Well said! smile

kradlum
I levelled Rogue 6 yesterday. I could easily be Rogue 8 but I mostly haven't bothered to take stealth (it's currently not useful, maybe more useful after Thursday), perception (I haven't been involved in enough PvP for it to have been any use) or power (I don't find the maneuvers to be of any use at all in PvE). If 3 of the main feats to level rogues have little use, the class needs a bit of work.

- I'm eager to see how EE3 affects Stealth vs. NPCs. I haven't had a chance to play with it on the Test server yet, mostly due to how fast-paced the game is running this first month or so. Once training and crafting starts taking weeks (and other factors), I'll probably find myself playing the test server more often. /endrant. It should prove to make Stealth more valuable for scouts to tell the rest of the party what's in the party. Except that the names are all on the minimap, so it will eventually just come down to memorizing what monsters are what strength, etc. … Even still, tightly-grouped NPCs are hard to discern/separate on the minimap, so there's some long-term hope here still.

- Perception is certainly broken at this time, in my opinion. It makes little difference whether you have it or not right now. However, I would imagine that once some of those precious developer-hours are spent re-visiting Stealth-vs-Perception, you'll want to have Perception again.

- Power is indeed only useful for expendables of any sort, that's true. But I predict once we get into the Tier2 range, the "Power" game will start taking shape. Players will be gods if they dump their power into a few fights, but will be useless the rest of the day otherwise. Some of the Rogue expendables are indeed not working 100% as intended, but some of the upcoming changes should fix some of those (like string bolos). Others almost duplicate other Rogue/Utility feats, so they aren't quite as valuable. Just remember that there are plenty more maneuvers left to be seen in this game, plus the easy possibility of more being added later.
Nihimon
Kitsune
kradlum
… tightly-grouped NPCs are hard to discern/separate on the minimap, so there's some long-term hope here still.

I think Scouts should be useful for something other than identifying NPCs in a tightly-grouped camp.

IdeaScale: List all icons overlapping on Mini-Map

Remember, PFO isn't supposed to be about wrestling with the UI.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Doc
I think it would be great if nighttime boosted your stealth, and daytime boosted your perception.

Similarly, being in a forest boosted your stealth, and being in croplands boosted your perception.

The end result would be that nighttime in the woods would be crazy dangerous, and daytime in the fields would be super safe. (from sneaky rogues)
Kitsune
That's an interesting idea.
 
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