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Bad vs Wrong

New Guy

Hmm double post..
New Guy
Calidor
1. Yes there should be some mechanism to prevent spawn camping.
2. The general guideline we are given for behavior is "Don't be a jerk"
3. If this were done in reverse ie. someone killed a harvester and spawn camped them over and over again with the excuse of "denying the enemy resources" it would be griefing.
3. Spawn camping, by every test, falls into that "being a jerk" category.

Don't do it. We ALL know that GW plans to change the mechanic to stop you from being able to do it. If you persist, in essence you are exploiting. I would imagine that the recipient of spawn camping could actually appeal to a GM for help and have the offenders disciplined for breaking the "don't be a jerk" rule.
Flynn Pontis
I don't know what is up with T7V leaderships infatuation with shrine camping, how can you promote "positive" game play yet endorse such an action? Shrine camping is the opposite of positive game play, it is self serving and jerkish behavior, any assertions that it is a viable tactic is only because the game allows it to happen. Once Soul Binding is in the game Shrine camping will not be a thing so until then go nuts I guess, obviously you don't care about what the rest of the community thinks about shrine camping so have away at it!

I have yet to have the pleasure of being camped by you or your cronies but if such an occasion happens I will be sure to inform GW customer service about it. And should GW prove to not address the issue properly I will do the next logical thing and vote with my wallet. I was told when I signed up for this game that Pathfinder Online would be a different kind of MMO free of the toxic behaviors of the others on the market, was I lied to?
Duncan Dixon
LuckyCharms
I don't know what is up with T7V leaderships infatuation with shrine camping, how can you promote "positive" game play yet endorse such an action?

Hypocrisy it seems to me.

I've seen their adds in general and have actually thought about joining them when I leave PFU but I can tell you I certainly won't be doing that when names like Decius seem to have no problem endorsing griefers. smile One of the key things that brought me to PFO was the idea of an open world sandbox without the behaviors found in other MMO's and I will be very upset if GW doesn't stamp this out and deliver what they promised where groups or people who would support something like camping dead people are banned or driven out by community outrage.
Rynnik
Well this thread got interesting in a day absence. I'll try and circle each theme back around to the topic as much as possible.



@tribuzio: Took me a few posts to figure out what you were saying but I believe your concern is based on gear destruction? From what I can see Dura/gear destruction and mechanics around those things are still a work in progress. As more and more systems get fleshed out you may find that gear loss becomes a better system to support what I think you are trying to accomplish.

What you need to keep in mind though is that no system and no pressure or desire trumps the need for this community to identify and stigmatize activities which cross the threshold into being wrong. So while gear destruction itself is a bad game activity perfect for good organizations to fight fire with fire with, the way current dura loss works it is predicated on the wrong behaviour of shrine camping if you set out trying to 20 to 0 someone. And that is wrong.

So while I am not saying you intend to be or think of yourself as a griefer if you quack like a duck, and start to walk like a duck (I have no idea who you are in game and if you do or not), don't be shocked to be called out on being a duck and condemned to whatever fate it is that ducks deserve.



@ Phaeros and Mr. Decius: While I wouldn't have pegged you guys to be the organization to shelter and condone griefing, understanding that wrong and bad don't really have a linkage, makes it more conceivable that a self professed 'good' organization would be the first to challenge GW by taking that stance. You might want to review the second post in this thread. As GW policies are refined and developed and the community gets more and more mechanical 'pressure points' to exert on folks without resorting to wrong behaviours themselves it should make for a very interesting situation. The no 'griefing' advertising of PFO seems to be a pretty strongly resonating theme so I would be shocked to see this sort of concern slink quietly off.



@ Everyone else: I am reaffirmed and encouraged that generally the idea of distinction between bad and wrong is already understood and embraced by the majority of posters. While there will always be aberrations the consensus I am hearing and the direct quote from Mr. Dancey really makes me believe this experiment will work.

When griefers come to this game, and they will, they may be confused by the condemnation they receive from bad entities like Golgotha or Aragon and by the time THEY do figure out who will actually be willing to put up with behaviours like shrine camping they will hopefully already be discouraged enough to quit or will face GW bans along the way.

We are generally in a good place and I have a lot of hope for this community going forward!
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Nihimon
"Griefing" is not defined by actions; if it were, they could easily code in rules to eliminate it.

Shrine-Camping is not always wrong, but it is a really convenient topic for Golgotha to use to try to drag their enemies down into the muck.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Rynnik
Nihimon
"Griefing" is not defined by actions; if it were, they could easily code in rules to eliminate it.

Shrine-Camping is not always wrong, but it is a really convenient topic for Golgotha to use to try to drag their enemies down into the muck.
Saying shrine camping is wrong is a community consensus you chose to stand apart from. This entire thread is predicated on discussing ACTIONS that ARE wrong. Shrine camping is one of them.

Me pointing that out does NOT constitute dragging anyone down into the muck.

If you don't want to be associated or treated as a griefer I suggest you don't condone or practice griefing. I can't be clearer OR fairer then that.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Nihimon
@Rynnik, you and Ryan are not the only ones who've pointed out exceptions to the general case. Insisting that the exceptions you like are the only possibly valid exceptions, and accusing anyone who disagrees with you of "griefing" is pretty clearly dragging us down into the muck.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Rynnik
Nihimon
@Rynnik, you and Ryan are not the only ones who've pointed out exceptions to the general case. Insisting that the exceptions you like are the only possibly valid exceptions, and accusing anyone who disagrees with you of "griefing" is pretty clearly dragging us down into the muck.

Nihimon,

Exceptions don't constitute an excuse to allow or support use cases that again, the community, not you, not me, the COMMUNITY doesn't agree with. Go read the thread Ryan started again. The ONLY voices not saying that the best policy is to ban shrine camping entirely are yours. And in fact people FROM your in game group are speaking out against what you are supporting. You YOURSELF went on record against what you are now saying. Because you got called on it and admitted you had ethically strayed too far.

You disagreeing with the community concerns about shrine camping doesn't make it less of a requirement for you to abide by our beliefs. If someone comes into this game with the exact same argument saying, "I don't care what the community thinks, to ME, killing gatherers and then going to the shrine and killing them every time they spawn is just fine because they could gather materials for my enemies." We won't abide the perspective of that person. Because we are reasonable adults and can ascertain that that is WRONG and is exactly the kind of 'Being a Jerk' that PFO doesn't want.

Your argument is that it is fine for you because you have decided it is. That arrogant stance doesn't make it true. Not for a griefing goon and not for Phaeros either. So you don't really leave me any choice do you? When I say shrine camping is griefing and you then say 'we support shrine camping' I can't really drag you through anything but your own statements.

Edit: and let me tell you. Adverting that you support 'positive play' in this game in general chat while this conversation is ongoing in this out of game venue REALLY rubs me the wrong way for what it is worth.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Tink says Stab
Insisting that the exceptions you like are the only possibly valid exceptions, and accusing anyone who disagrees with you of "griefing" is pretty clearly dragging us down into the muck.

LOL
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
 
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