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A Call to all Communal Harvesters.

Tyncale
To all those harvesters that throw their resources into a communal coffer in exchange for handouts by your settlements leadership, I challenge you to pick up a calculator and find out what you could have earned if you would have put those resources on an AH instead. For instance at these prices that almost guarantee a sale: Just a random AH.

Even if your leadership is the most generous in the world, wouldn't it be great if you could simply use your own, hard-earned coin at your own time and discretion, whenever you need something, instead of having to put in another armor "request" at the comrade who is running your local trade-goods collective?

The coin Economy is around the corner, you will be needing silver to spend on your training and because Sales are anonymous and the nights are dark in Golarion, nobody will notice you sneaking into an AH and putting up (part of) your wares for sale. smile

I find Harvesting to be one of the most sincere, dangerous, hardworking and boring activities in the game and you should be aptly rewarded for it!

Cheers!
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Midnight
I'm going to offer a counterpoint. One of the reasons I like throwing resources into a communal treasury is because I know I will be reliant on a lot more people than myself to look after the various holdings (currently only towers) that provide training and support for skills, as well as to keep other gatherers away from *my* nodes. ;-)

What would I do with 300 gold but no training/support for my skills?

This game makes me more reliant on other players (if I want to be more than a Marchmont scrub) than any game I've ever played.

My communal harvesting empowers my mates, who empower me.

I could sell everything I gather. Then I'd use the coin to pay for protection, to pay people to do defensive tower scouting, to pay people to scout escalation hexes, to pay people to attack and defend towers, to pay people to join me in taking down tier 2 escalations, etc.

By the time I was through paying a fair price for everything I get from my mates, I'd be exactly where I am now.

The market has an advantage in that it penalizes slackers who are trying to get a free ride, but I'm just not seeing any of that and I doubt enough of it exists to worry about at the moment.

Note 1: My view on the economy can change as the game or community changes, but at this point my regrets are few, regarding my communism.

Note 2: My communism slowed down after week 6 of the game as I started skilling up my refining characters (in anticipation of skilling up my crafting characters). I needed a wide variety of resources available at my weird playing hours, without having to track down a quartermaster. But the resources I'm banking will eventually be turned into gear for my mates, and when I get a particularly large amount of something we burn through, like coal, I still hand it over to the people who will put it to immediate use.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Tyncale
I think in the end settlements should work for the communal good through an even tax for all members (that you can not duck) and through income from the AH and/or large intersettlement shipments of Bulk Goods that are arranged and protected by the Leadership. I expect a settlement to contain a wide variety of Companies, many of which want to keep their own autonomy within that settlement and will offer their services for gold, like protecting such a caravan. I expect the same on a membership level once we are talking settlements with 500-1000 members: free members that add to the settlement by using the AH(tax), through regular tax and other services they provide (and sell).

You give examples on how you would have to spend coin and to be honest, that is how I think it will both work on the leadership scale (hiring companies) as well as on the more personal scale where you spend your coin as you see fit. This will only add in a positive way to the hustle and bustle of a settlement.

You talk about slackers: that will be a problem at some point. But there is also the simple fact that some members may churn through a single armor in 3 months while others need one every week(due to play time, play-preference, caution). How do you balance that? With a coin economy, there is much more room for personal variation and goals.

I can see how these collectives work now: but I think they are doomed to fall apart at some point.

Also, do not forget that a player like you, Midnight, not only is fattening the communal coffers that benefit your buddies: you are also one of the protectors since you are a PvP minded player with skills. So you are doubling up on your "worth" as I see it.

I like to see you getting payed for your protective services, while a guy like me would make armors and other goods for members to buy(and make money for myself and the settlement! though tax) and a harvester would keep the AH stocked so that the Settlement thrives even more, and earn a good few golds with that too. And off course any combination of those activities/skills will work fine with any character. Coin makes the world (and Settlement) go round.

But I am sure we will see smallish communist settlements even in the future, most likely when they are new.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Midnight
I can't argue with any of that.

I'm just not convinced I'd be any better off, or worse off, in the coin economy (once I paid the fair value for all the benefits my mates provide me) than I am now.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
Tyncale
Also, do not forget that a player like you, Midnight, not only is fattening the communal coffers that benefit your buddies: you are also one of the protectors since you are a PvP minded player with skills. So you are doubling up on your "worth" as I see it.

I accept that I am a double threat, but I am also a casual player who mostly plays on weekends, and even on weekends some of my mates outdo me on play time. How will casual players fare in a coin economy compared to the hardcore players like students and the unemployed? How will settlements appeal to each?

Truth be told, I often care if we have towers Monday through Thursday, and many weekdays I simply can't do anything to help even if I did care (without endangering the salary that pays for my PFO habit). Watching the coin economy deal with valuing various things, like Euro timezone patrolling, will be interesting.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Tyncale
I actually meant that you are already being twice the value for the settlement, not threat! Meaning that currently you are a double asset to the settlement: a free of charge Harvester and a potential protector. You may be an undervalued member in the future, though I realize that Golgotha is operating very well and Phyllain values you to death. smile

I would like to add that I am a Callambean, and though we are in the same Empire, the settlements have very different goals, I think. I hope that in the future we can lure a Mercenary Company to the Settlement (which we will have to supply Role-support for, I realize this) that we will pay gold when one of our Holdings gets sieged. Currently all of Golgotha would come to the rescue if any of Golgotha's Holdings would be in danger, but I think future cities, at least ones like Callambea wil have to rely on other means.

On a sidenote, this is why I hope that attacking Holdings will not use the same cheesy point-taking system as Towers. I am sure there was talk about at least minor siege-equipment being needed for taking down a holding and I would hope this will give the defender time to arrange deals with mercenaries and such.

Also, Mercenary companies are cool, we need to give them a place, and as we all know, they only take Gold. smile Which again means that we will need Inns that have Beer. And wenches. Ah, coin.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
FuryFire
The only thing that would cause a market system to be superior to a centralized one in this game is if management of the centralized system starting showing horrendous inefficiency, likely due to growing size. Outside of that, centralization offers massive benefits over a market system for a group, such as increasing efficiency of transactions among gatherers, refiners, crafters, and consumers. Eventually size will reduce the efficiency below what could be obtained otherwise, but no group is large enough yet for that to be true.
Grip
I would disagree with the idea that a coin economy is 'just around the corner' unless you can see a corner from a marathon distance.

But I would say that I find the communist machine settlement model very stifling to the current economy AND to gameplay in general …. that's why the Free Settlers are the best company ever! smile

Plus they don't spam your text box into oblivion
Edam
I kind of like the Kibbutz economy.
Tyncale
fierywind
The only thing that would cause a market system to be superior to a centralized one in this game is if management of the centralized system starting showing horrendous inefficiency, likely due to growing size. Outside of that, centralization offers massive benefits over a market system for a group, such as increasing efficiency of transactions among gatherers, refiners, crafters, and consumers. Eventually size will reduce the efficiency below what could be obtained otherwise, but no group is large enough yet for that to be true.
Yes, for smaller settlements they are the most efficient, I just hope everyone is having fun getting their stuff handed out to them and throwing the fruits of their labor in some communal pit. According to Ryan, succesfull settlements will number in the many hundreds up to thousands. Even in a settlement of 200 people I would think such a centralized system would fall apart, unless they keep seeing themselves as part of what can I only call an old fashioned "Guild".

Since that is how most settlements are currently working: they are groups of people that you'd find in other games as a Large Guild, where everything of importance is done in a communal effort, like Raiding with the DKP system. The fact that there are Companies is not breaking this mold yet.

However I sincerely hope that many Settlements will grow into something grander, something more cosmopolitan where you might even have Companies in the same settlement that feud eachother because they are in a price-war or maybe of a different faction or vying for a Hex to put in their Hold. Off course not to the point of causing ruin to the entire settlement: but if you have a settlement of 1200 members, why couldn't two 23-people Companies have animosities with eachother?

Good luck running a centralized hand-out economy in that envisioning of a Settlement. smile

If settlements will stay at the level of "some huge Guild that does everything together" then the vision of the game will have failed for me.

Honestly, all the centralized stuff that Thannon is describing sure sounds good on paper(and works for now), cant argue with it, but it sure as hell does not sound like fun. You will NEVER see me in a settlement like that. smile

I also feel that the centralized thing currently works because this game is obviously not noob-friendly yet (if ever, its a PvP game after all) and people are just happy they are taken into the arms of a motherly figure that will give them soup and protect them from the baddies. smile
Grip, I am working hard to push it, keep that positive visualization going, it *has* to come or it's a bust. I must say that the Callambea AH is getting a LOT more goods lately, the reason why it still looks empty on the resource department is because I am buying it all!
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
 
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