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Consumables and Effect Power

Tink says Stab
With the introduction of an at least semi-working Effect Power/Effect Defence system, we are beginning to get a better view of how the combat system is supposed to work. Heals are a lot less effective when trained to low feat ranks, Buffs have tiny durations, Debuffs have a lower application rate. All of that is good, or it will be when it is fully working. Things that you train in should require equivalent equipment to get the full use of. If I want to use Agile Feet in T2 armour, I should be expected to spent more than 81xp to do so.

Something that I don't agree quite so much with is how Effect Defence currently changes the duration and power of, at the very least, beneficial consumables. Honestly, I don't have enough experience with offensive consumables to make an informed decision either way, so I'm going to ignore them right now.

Consumables are already struggling to find a niche in the economy. Journeyman Cure and Speed pots are beginning to get a foothold, but all of the rest of them are suffering. With the introduction of a working Effect Power/Effect Defence system, I can only see this getting worse. The formula that determines the Effect Power of consumables means that they will always fall behind the Effect Defence of a character utilizing equal Tier/Plus Value Gear.

The potions already seem balanced for their tier value, I do not see why it is worthwhile, or beneficial to both the economy and low tier crafters, to double dip them.

For example, lets look at the Speed Potion line of consumables, perhaps the most likely to actually find a stable market. An Apprentice's Speed Potion gives the user 18 rounds of Quickened, the lesser version of the speed buff. A Journeyman's Speed Potion gives the user 17 rounds of Hasted, the greater version of the speed buff. A Master' Speed Potion gives the user 30 rounds of Hasted, the greater version of the speed buff.

Without taking EPow/EDef/ into consideration, those values seem balanced to me. The problem that EPow/EDef is intended to solve isn't an issue in the first place when it comes to those potions. A character that is equipped with T2 armour is always, always, always going to want to pick up the higher tier potion that they can get their hands on. The difference between a T1->T2 Speed Potion is already big enough that the T2 potion is inherently better. Nonetheless, if they can't get their hands on the T2 version, the T1 potion is still good enough that they might consider buying a few from low tier crafters, just to make do.

Without the EPow/EDef formula being used for beneficial consumables, everyone involved is benefiting. The buyer is still getting what they are after. The low tier crafter is still making money. The gatherers and refiners are also making money off of those low tier crafters. Even the high tier crafters are benefiting, as a player population that values consumables means that they have a more market to exploit.

With the EPow/EDef formula being used for beneficial consumables, only one person is directly benefiting; the high tier crafters. Without access to the much larger player base that is T2 equipped characters, low tier crafters are left without a market. As such, gatherers and refiners are making less money. Even the buyer is worse off, as they are more at the mercy of the availability of tier equivalent potions.

There is no reason to have the EPow/EDef formula put to use when it comes to, at the very least, beneficial consumables. The values are already balanced for tier. Buyers already always want to buy the highest tier available. Literally the only reason to include it is to have an easy design space for the plus values on the potions, but even that issue can be designed around. If, instead of adding EPow, the plus values on potions literally just added duration/power to the buffs that they give, we would side step that entire issue.

Can anyone convince me of a good reason to include EPow/EDef on crafted consumables? I can think of one or two for offensive versions, but even then I'm not so sure. For example, with the current system, a Master's Tangle Bomb would Immobilize someone in T1 armour for… 18 rounds? Does anyone feel like that makes sense? 10 rounds of Immobilize is already huge!

TL;DR, I don't think that beneficial consumables should take EPow/EDef into consideration. I'm not convinced that offensive consumables should either. Convince me otherwise?
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Nihimon
Speed (Hasted 12 Rounds) is a Level 1 Wizard Spell with one possible Keyword match (Electric). The best Effect Power it can ever have is 1. No other Wizard Spell comes close to giving that kind of duration for Hasted.

The Speed Potions are, I believe, already balanced with the assumption that they'll be less effective on folks in higher level gear. Journeyman's Speed Potion (Hasted 17 Rounds) at +0 has Effect Power 3 compared to likely Effect Protection of at least 5 (Tier 2 +0 Armor) for -20% Effect, resulting in Hasted for 13.6 Rounds, just a little better than Speed in Robes +0. If you really want to get Hasted for a long time, you're going to have to spend the resources to get the high quality potions.

If Effect Protection is to be removed from Consumables, then the current Effects on those Consumables will likely need to be re-balanced.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Tabomo
I agree with Tink. Consumables should have a flat value. That's why they are consumable.
Phyllain
I agree with tink. (he forced me to come here and say this)
Tuoweit
If we want to narrow that gap, I'd rather see Tier 1 potions buffed to be a little more interesting (and get people "hooked" on consumables), rather than eliminate EPro/EPow from consumables. The current EPro/EPow system will still naturally get people migrate to T2 consumables if they so desire.

I strongly disagree that there needs to be a continued high-end demand for low-end consumables. If consumables are enticing in their own right (I think the T1 ones are lacking somewhat), people will use them when when their EPow is appropriate.

The current system also means potions need to keep up with other gear - +0 potions will definitely be feeling weak (and probably stepped down) when you're wearing +3 armor.

As for balancing of the higher-end potions, I agree with Nihimon - the current numbers for T2/T3 potions have to take into account the EPro of the current T2/T3 armors: A T2+0 potion has a EPow of three; a feat-appropriate T2+0 armor has an EPro of FIVE (six, for Guide/Merchant's Clothes). This difference doubles at tier 3 - 6 vs 10. So T2/T3 potions are already fighting an uphill battle vs tier-equivalent EPro before we even start pushing into +'s, and the effects are likely taking this into account already. Does that make the numbers deceptive at first glance? I suppose, from a naive perspective - the same could be said for an attack that's supposed to do "x" damage, it doesn't take into account the target's resistances, but nobody is surprised when that happens, because we're familiar with that mechanic.

As for using high-end potions in low EPro situations - hey, if you want to blow a 1g potion so you can kill (meaningfully smile) a guy in T1 armor, be my guest.
Stilachio Thrax
I think EPro/EPow is a bad system on the whole- taking a sledgehammer to a problem that needed a scalpel- and its worst effect is what it has done to consumables and buffs. You should not penalize players for having better gear, particularly when said gear takes durability hits and will eventually need to be threaded.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Giorgio
Counter to the point above, I believe EPro/EPow is a good system (once working properly), but is sure hard as hell to understand for non math people, and confusing to explain. smile
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Decius
Stilachio Thrax
I think EPro/EPow is a bad system on the whole- taking a sledgehammer to a problem that needed a scalpel- and its worst effect is what it has done to consumables and buffs. You should not penalize players for having better gear, particularly when said gear takes durability hits and will eventually need to be threaded.

While it might be too late for a major redesign, what scalpel would you propose to the general case of the problem where low-level buffs are equally effective when used by unskilled characters as when used by skilled characters? Should experienced characters be more effective at buffing themselves than lower skilled characters are at buffing themselves?
Rynnik
Decius
Should experienced characters be more effective at buffing themselves than lower skilled characters are at buffing themselves?

I think most people would be happy if it was constant. While there is an argument that the 3 minor keyword heal of 300 is less effective because after months of exp it is a much smaller percentage of total health people are getting really cheesed off that the heal is now 200 while they are in top gear. If it was always 300 you wouldn't get the same resistance.

We are straying away from the specific use case of consumables which the thread intended to discuss however.
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Stilachio Thrax
Decius
Stilachio Thrax
I think EPro/EPow is a bad system on the whole- taking a sledgehammer to a problem that needed a scalpel- and its worst effect is what it has done to consumables and buffs. You should not penalize players for having better gear, particularly when said gear takes durability hits and will eventually need to be threaded.

While it might be too late for a major redesign, what scalpel would you propose to the general case of the problem where low-level buffs are equally effective when used by unskilled characters as when used by skilled characters? Should experienced characters be more effective at buffing themselves than lower skilled characters are at buffing themselves?

A healing potion is a healing potion no matter what level you are. If it heals 150 at a low level, it should still heal that at level 20. Higher level characters get the advantage of being able to use advanced versions that lower levels can't. GW has the ability to gate things by role level or ability score (tokens are already gated by ability score).

I can see the benefit of making , for instance, an Aid spell perform better if cast by someone matching a boatload of keywords, but it makes no sense to have a spell cast under the same conditions perform better on a character in T1 armor than a character in T2+2 armor. Effects for beneficial spells should have their effect solely determined by the caster's abilities and gear.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
 
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