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Consumables and Effect Power

Nihimon
Stilachio Thrax
If it heals 150 at a low level, it should still heal that at level 20.

This is, in my opinion, a holdover from other MMOs where your total Hit Points scale so drastically between "low level" and "level 20" that a 150 point heal is completely insignificant at level 20.

Since PFO is very intentionally flattening that curve, they can't just let the low level heals heal for the same amount. Effect Protection is a very innovative way to deal with the problem. Folks will get used to it.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Decius
Stilachio Thrax
A healing potion is a healing potion no matter what level you are. If it heals 150 at a low level, it should still heal that at level 20. Higher level characters get the advantage of being able to use advanced versions that lower levels can't. GW has the ability to gate things by role level or ability score (tokens are already gated by ability score).

I can see the benefit of making , for instance, an Aid spell perform better if cast by someone matching a boatload of keywords, but it makes no sense to have a spell cast under the same conditions perform better on a character in T1 armor than a character in T2+2 armor. Effects for beneficial spells should have their effect solely determined by the caster's abilities and gear.
So do you think that an Aid spell cast on a top-level character by someone who casts it at the minimum level should be as effective as one cast by a character at maximum level, or do you think that characters casting Minor Cure on themselves at the highest level should heal far more HP than at the lowest level? The first makes the low-level buffer just as effective as the max-level buffer, and the second makes the gap between power levels larger.
Edam
I do not see an issue with the system other than being beyond most peoples comprehension to have a clue how it works (why does my channel positive still work at about 30-40% in T2+2 medium armor but energetic field reduces from 20 odd seconds to a quarter of a second for example).

The problem is not the system it is just poorly balanced. Consumables are not balanced and need a lot more Eprow. In armor silly things are happening, like people wearing T1 or T2+0 armor because the armor benefits do not make up for the buff loss.

There is also something to the argument that how thing works currently is the wrong way around. Surely you want to nerf the use of low level buffs by the higher level players but still want a new player to be relatively effective at buffing the group.
Tink says Stab
To be as clear as I can possibly be; I have absolutely no issue with the EPow/EPro system in the vast majority of cases. I understand the value of having low tier abilities being less effective when cast through low tier equipment, and high tier abilities suffering the same malus when cast through that same equipment. It is a fairly well designed system for forcing high level characters to use high level gear. It also helps prevent the age old “Level 1 Buff Bot” problem.

What I do have an issue with is EPow/EPro effecting crafted consumables, and only crafting consumables. This is not an issue with a lack of understanding the system, or why it is in place, or which problems it sets out to solve. This is an issue with the current system running against my belief that goods that are purchased with currency should do exactly what they say on the tin. Now, you might say something along the lines of “But your other abilities don’t do what they say they do on the tin unless you spend currency on the gear to use them!”, and I agree that that is a hiccup in my argument. The only thing that I can say is that I, for some reason or another (I’ll have a think why) don’t think that the two cases are similar enough.

Crafted consumables are already gated so that in the vast majority of cases, only a tier equivalent character will be able to use them. The Con11 and Con19 requirements for T2 and T3 consumables means that won’t really see them being used by people in lower tiers (less so for T3, once we are able to equip it but spend most of our time in T2).

Crafted consumables already seem to have their power modified by which tier they are a part of; low tier health pots already heal less than high tier health pots, low tier speed pots already give either a lesser effect or a shorter duration than high tier speed pots.

The problem that the EPow/EPro system is intended to solve is already solved within the crafted consumable system without taking EPow/EPro into consideration. Lower tier crafted consumables are inherently weaker than higher tier crafted consumables. Higher level characters would already be focusing the vast majority of their efforts in getting the higher tier crafted consumables.

By double dipping the low tier crafted consumables effective power, you only add unnecessary opaqueness to a system that should be as accessible as possible. Adding complexity to a system for the sake of complexity is bad design.

Now, I agree that if EPow/EPro was removed from crafted consumables, that a few of the effect durations might need to be looked at. But even then, I’m not sure that the majority of them would need it. Consumables should be powerful. Consumables should be capable of changing a fight on a dime. In my opinion they should literally be the best method for applying buffs in the game. Actually, I think that there should be buffs/debuffs that can literally only be applied with consumables.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Nihimon
Tinkerton
Crafted consumables are already gated so that in the vast majority of cases, only a tier equivalent character will be able to use them. The Con11 and Con19 requirements for T2 and T3 consumables means that won’t really see them being used by people in lower tiers (less so for T3, once we are able to equip it but spend most of our time in T2).

The problem isn't with low-level Characters using high-level Consumables. The problem is with high-level Characters using low-level Consumables. That problem is a result of the (very, very good) decision to flatten the Hit Point pool drastically compared to what it is in other games.

Tinkerton
The problem that the EPow/EPro system is intended to solve is already solved within the crafted consumable system without taking EPow/EPro into consideration. Lower tier crafted consumables are inherently weaker than higher tier crafted consumables.

They're "weaker", yes. But they're still quite effective. Being able to use an Apprentice's Cure Potion +0 to heal 285 Hit Points on a Character that has less than 900 Hit Points total is ridiculously over-powered. Very few players would buy Journeyman's Cure Potions at any plus if it worked that way. And no one would ever expend the resources required to make a Master's Cure Potion +5.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Rynnik
Nihimon
Being able to use an Apprentice's Cure Potion +0 to heal 285 Hit Points on a Character that has less than 900 Hit Points total is ridiculously over-powered. Very few players would buy Journeyman's Cure Potions at any plus if it worked that way. And no one would ever expend the resources required to make a Master's Cure Potion +5.

But it isn't overpowered to use an Apprentice's Cure Potion +0 to heal 285 Hit Points on a Character that has less than 600 Hit Points total?

If Apprentice's Cure Pots healed 100 HP and on a new player it was 1/6 of their total HP pool and on a vet it was 1/9 of there total wouldn't that do what you are saying?
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Tink says Stab
I disagree that that is anywhere close to ‘ridiculously overpowered’. That 285 HP heal is about equivalent to someone with a properly trained/equipped Minor Cure, a 12s cooldown spell that will cost me ~25c per durability, given that T2+1 Cleric stick costs me 5s on the AH house right now. In T2+2 armour, with that spell properly trained, I will be healing myself for 270HP.

So by giving up an item slot, investing my money into items that will eventually almost always drop on death (unless I thread my potions), I get the ability to cast the most basic heal in the game 9 times. Hardly OP.

As a T2+2 equipped Fighter I have 1301HP, so that 285HP heal is ~20% of my health. If I use the Journeyman’s Cure Potion, healing myself for 535HP, I get back ~40% of my health. That is a massive difference. Given that consumables are usually used as “Oh Shit” buttons, I can promise you, guarantee you, that the Journeyman’s Cure Potion would be used in the vast majority of cases over the Apprentice’s.

In fact, literally the only thing I would change for that particular line would be to make the Apprentice’s Cure Potion give Quick Healing instead of Regenerating. I believe that it is completely balanced with that change.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Decius
Properly training Minor Cure is not a trivial cost, unlike creating T1 potions.
Quijenoth Starkiller
Not really used consumables much but healing effectiveness is quite a big concern in this regard as was highlighted to me last night.

I (T2+0 armor) was grouped with a new player (T1 +0 equipment) showing him how to work escalations. He had a good hold on combat already and when my health got low attempted to heal me instead of hitting the mobs. Net result of his efforts to heal was 0. Now if this isn't counter productive I dunno what is.
Quijenoth Starkiller Viceroy of Callambea
Company Leader of Beyond the Grave - www.beyond-pfo.com
Crafting Planner
Edam
Quijenoth Starkiller
Not really used consumables much but healing effectiveness is quite a big concern in this regard as was highlighted to me last night.

I (T2+0 armor) was grouped with a new player (T1 +0 equipment) showing him how to work escalations. He had a good hold on combat already and when my health got low attempted to heal me instead of hitting the mobs. Net result of his efforts to heal was 0. Now if this isn't counter productive I dunno what is.

I can understand the need to avoid 1 week old heal bot characters but to be honest this total nerf of effects from new players is just going to make new players feel useless and potentially lead to an "I can never catch up" attitude. Some sort of floor on how low the effects of a buff cast by a new character actually go might be a help.
 
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