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Consumables and Effect Power

Tink says Stab
The major cost in training Minor Cure to a usable level for the vast majority of the player population is getting to Wisdom 11, which I agree is a fairly large barrier, but it is also a gate that quite a few people will want to clear sooner or later any ways. There are a fair few skill advancements that require it outside of the obvious Cleric role (Dungeoneering, for example), and that list of only going to get bigger. For a character older than 6 months, clearing Wisdom 11 shouldn’t be that much of an issue.

Outside of the Wisdom 11 gate, getting Minor Cure to EPow 7 (T2+2) costs 11748XP, or about 5 days worth of training. About a third of that sunk XP is used to get you to T2 for every Orison, which means that it is also helping you get access to valuable feats like Agile Feet and Virtue.

By investing that XP you are also getting access to group buffs, group heals, self buffs, a fair few ranged attacks, you clear an important ability gate for PvE loot drops, and you take a big step closer to cutting off reliance on any consumable market that your settlement runs.

In the grand scheme of things, that is a fairly trivial cost when compared to T1 consumables. They require people willing to gather materials, people willing to refine T1 materials rather than more profitable T2 ones. They require enterprising individuals to create a market niche, and then exploit that niche to turn enough of a profit for it to be worthwhile.

As long as each individual Apprentice’s Cure Potion costs more than 25c, or you use Minor Cure more than once per death (which you almost certainly will), you are coming out ahead in coin cost. Every time you cast Minor Cure without dying you are stretching that coin efficiency out even further. You are front loading XP to avoid paying out more coin over a longer period of time. Given that sandbox games thrive on eeking out tiny efficiencies, a lot of players are going to see that as Worth™.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Nihimon
Rynnik
But it isn't overpowered to use an Apprentice's Cure Potion +0 to heal 285 Hit Points on a Character that has less than 600 Hit Points total?

Right, because it's not about trying to understand the point being made, it's about trying to make sound bites…

Apprentice's Cure Potion +0
Journeyman's Cure Potion +2
Master's Cure Potion +3

A very casual analysis of the costs will make it clear even to the most reluctant observers that a 285 point Cure at that cost is ridiculously overpowered for a character in mid Tier 2 gear. And that no one will ever spend the resources to craft a Master's Cure Potion if Effect Protection is not applied to Consumables.

Effect Power vs Effect Protection works great. Folks will get used to it.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Tink says Stab
It's always fun talking to you Nihimon. "You disagree with me, clearly you just aren't listening! Rabble rabble sound bites, rabble rabble".

Get over yourself already.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Stilachio Thrax
Decius
So do you think that an Aid spell cast on a top-level character by someone who casts it at the minimum level should be as effective as one cast by a character at maximum level, or do you think that characters casting Minor Cure on themselves at the highest level should heal far more HP than at the lowest level? The first makes the low-level buffer just as effective as the max-level buffer, and the second makes the gap between power levels larger.

I would argue for static base values for both spells, and those can be enhanced by matching keywords. The only advantage a level 20 would have over a level 4 is the ability to match more keywords. Both are still useful, one is a bit more so. What I don't want is for the spell cast by either player on another player with the best gear to be less effective than when its cast on a player with low-level equipment. Why should I equip a t2 +2 armor and get terribad heals and buffs, when I can equip a T1 +3 (losing little practical performance in the process) and get much better heals and buffs? That is counter-intuitive.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Tink says Stab
High tier crafted consumables would see use in either system. There is precedent for vastly more expensive goods being used over less costly goods, even when the advantage granted by those goods is minute. EvE Online thrives on this concept; people regularly pay over 1000% cost mark ups for 2.5% more damage.

If nothing else, the flattening of the power curve actually encourages this behaviour. When every advantage is small, every single one counts. 4 Apprentice's Cure Potions might cost a huge sum less than a Master's Cure Potion, but the Master's Cure Potion still gives the user an advantage over using the lesser variety. The heal is more condensed, and so less time is wasted healing. Less inventory space is used up, and so more can be carried by a single individual.

The easiest way to gauge whether or not an item will be used is to determine which grants the user the largest advantage. Two equally trained, equally equipped T3 Fighters begin to attack each other. One Fighter has 4 Apprentice's Cure Potions, the other has a single Master's Cure Potion.

The first Fighter is spacing his healing out over the fight. Every second that he shifts his attention away from dealing damage to healing himself, the other Fighter has the opportunity to exploit that weakness and apply force. Every time that the first Fighter is healing himself, he applies Opportunity, which is then exploited by the second.

Meanwhile the second Fighter focuses all of his attention on killing the first, only needing to pay attention to his health when he can get the maximum benefit of the much larger heal. He can be more focused, he provokes fewer opportunities for the first Fighter to exploit a weakness, he has the advantage.

And so he should always win that fight.

And so sooner or later the meta between two equally trained, equally equipped Fighters shifts towards both using Master's Cure Potions, because without them you don't just need to be as good as your enemy, you need to be better, and that is never, ever something you should rely on.

Competitive gamers will do everything, everything they can to minimise the influence of player skill in the outcome of a fight. It is the nature of the beast that every advantage that can be taken will be sought out, no matter the cost. Because winning is everything.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Nihimon
Tinkerton
… people regularly pay over 1000% cost mark ups for 2.5% more damage.

People pay that markup for a temporary boost to damage?

Sorry, but I see this implementation of Effect Protection as the first of hopefully many powerful and repeated shocks to the system to drive home the message that "random player killing will gimp your character development".

If you want to have the extra protection of Tier 2 Armor in combat, then you need to accept that you're not going to be able to stay in those fights using Tier 1 +0 Consumables. I don't think everyone arguing against Effect Protection being applied to Consumables is doing so for transparently self-serving reasons, but I'm pretty sure you are, Tink.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Tink says Stab
People pay that markup for a temporary boost to damage?

Yes, they do. People pay huge markup prices for things like high quality thermal paste that will let them overheat their equipment more efficiently. People pay huge markup prices for high quality ammo that will let them eke out a few percentage points of additional damage. People pay huge markup prices for high quality capacitor boosters that will let them more efficiently regenerate the EvE equivalent of Stamina.

If you think that I am being self-serving in trying to make T1 consumables useful for every character, as a fall back, then you clearly don't have any insight at all into my character. Why the hell would I use less efficient, lower advantage granting consumables when I can afford the better versions? Why the hell would I be buying up huge quantities of T2 consumables RIGHT NOW, if that was my intention?

I have literally nothing to gain by T1 consumables being usable by high level characters. I have a steady supply of T2 consumables via Callambea. I have a steady supply of cash money via murdering people and taking their stuff.

I am not the kind of person that will be staying in a fight because I have T1+0 consumables. I am the kind of person that is willing to spend 50 hours of game time grinding out the gold to buy T3+5 consumables because I know that the advantage they will grant me will make me beat you even further into the ground than I otherwise would.

Keep on attacking my character. Keep on trying to imply that all I want to be is a murder hobo. I'll keep killing you, basically risk free, because I understand how advantages in sandbox games work, and I'm not fucking naïve enough to think that someone would use things that are categorically worse when they don't have to.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Nihimon
Tinkerton
I have a steady supply of cash money via murdering people and taking their stuff.

Keep on trying to imply that all I want to be is a murder hobo.

That made me laugh smile
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Tink says Stab
Just because I murder people doesn't mean that that is all I want to do. Nor does it mean that every argument I make is in support of being able to better murder people. The PvP that I am engaging in will, eventually, be fully supported by the game. If I could have feuded Phaeros' companies before coming down and murdering it up I would have. I'm sure that you would have done the same when you came up and took all our towers.

Nothing I have done so far in this game is particularly murder hobo-ish. Close to every single instance of PvP that Golgotha has been a part of has had meaning and consequence; exactly what the developers are aiming for.
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Decius
Stilachio Thrax
Decius
So do you think that an Aid spell cast on a top-level character by someone who casts it at the minimum level should be as effective as one cast by a character at maximum level, or do you think that characters casting Minor Cure on themselves at the highest level should heal far more HP than at the lowest level? The first makes the low-level buffer just as effective as the max-level buffer, and the second makes the gap between power levels larger.

I would argue for static base values for both spells, and those can be enhanced by matching keywords. The only advantage a level 20 would have over a level 4 is the ability to match more keywords. Both are still useful, one is a bit more so. What I don't want is for the spell cast by either player on another player with the best gear to be less effective than when its cast on a player with low-level equipment. Why should I equip a t2 +2 armor and get terribad heals and buffs, when I can equip a T1 +3 (losing little practical performance in the process) and get much better heals and buffs? That is counter-intuitive.
Meaningful choices. I don't want to see a max level character heal himself for more hp than the low-level characters have by using the same amount of stamina, while being literally immune to t1 physical attacks. The cost of t1 cure potions is low enough that many people prefer not to train and use a focus, the price of t2 potions is high enough that t1 potions are still used by some people who can use t2 potions, and Minor Cure is effective enough when used horizontally (on a character with net estrength 0) at all levels that it makes sense for someone who uses a focus to slot it, but never becomes so effective that everybody needs to train foci and slot Minor Cure to be effective.

A good UI feature would be a way to see what the effect power of your abilities was with your current equipment, and what your epro was, along with a popup that summarized what those things meant.
 
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