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Consumables and Effect Power

Decius
Nihimon
Tinkerton
… people regularly pay over 1000% cost mark ups for 2.5% more damage.

People pay that markup for a temporary boost to damage?

Sorry, but I see this implementation of Effect Protection as the first of hopefully many powerful and repeated shocks to the system to drive home the message that "random player killing will gimp your character development".

If you want to have the extra protection of Tier 2 Armor in combat, then you need to accept that you're not going to be able to stay in those fights using Tier 1 +0 Consumables. I don't think everyone arguing against Effect Protection being applied to Consumables is doing so for transparently self-serving reasons, but I'm pretty sure you are, Tink.

Yes, people are willing to pay extra to do extra damage. How much extra per batch of arrows or charges is +1 base damage worth? I don't know yet, but it's probably not zero.

If the +10% healing per potion and +1 base damage arrows make the difference between victory and defeat, their marginal value is very high. If they don't, their marginal value is much lower. How many tansy leaves are equal to holding territory?
Rynnik
Nihimon
Rynnik
But it isn't overpowered to use an Apprentice's Cure Potion +0 to heal 285 Hit Points on a Character that has less than 600 Hit Points total?

Right, because it's not about trying to understand the point being made, it's about trying to make sound bites…

Apprentice's Cure Potion +0
Journeyman's Cure Potion +2
Master's Cure Potion +3

A very casual analysis of the costs will make it clear even to the most reluctant observers that a 285 point Cure at that cost is ridiculously overpowered for a character in mid Tier 2 gear. And that no one will ever spend the resources to craft a Master's Cure Potion if Effect Protection is not applied to Consumables.
So you don't think a bit of a step back and overall analysis of the consumable system is relevant to the discussion at hand?

To echo Tink, get over yourself. You'll know when I am 'out to get you' so stop hunting boogeymen. In the meantime can we please discuss other stuff in other threads?

You bring up a good point that Apprentice Cure Pots do a LOT. Maybe a starting solution to the problem should go back that far when holistically considering the implications of effect power on consumables.

Nihimon
Sorry, but I see this implementation of Effect Protection as the first of hopefully many powerful and repeated shocks to the system to drive home the message that "random player killing will gimp your character development".
I'm probably just a lot dumber then you.

Can you please explain to me how you just tied this conversation into random player killing because 'I' for one am not tracking?

Decius
I don't want to see a max level character heal himself for more hp than the low-level characters have by using the same amount of stamina, while being literally immune to t1 physical attacks. The cost of t1 cure potions is low enough that many people prefer not to train and use a focus, the price of t2 potions is high enough that t1 potions are still used by some people who can use t2 potions, and Minor Cure is effective enough when used horizontally (on a character with net estrength 0) at all levels that it makes sense for someone who uses a focus to slot it, but never becomes so effective that everybody needs to train foci and slot Minor Cure to be effective.
I'm really curious why you are ignoring the fact that people don't seem to be worried about healing MORE at high level. Most people seem like they would be happy with healing the SAME as a low level character once the high and low both have the applicable keywords maxed out. Most people seem like they have a problem with healing LESS then a low level character.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Stilachio Thrax
Decius
A good UI feature would be a way to see what the effect power of your abilities was with your current equipment, and what your epro was, along with a popup that summarized what those things meant.

While we'll have to agree to disagree on EPow/Epro (I actually think we want similar things, just doing it differently), this absolutely is a must. Because the RNG hates me, I was only able to finally pickup an Augment maneuver last night. I was thrilled when the tooltip said it would heal 610 hp. I was not particularly happy when it actually healed 183 hp. This type of thing needs to be reflected in tooltips. It's aggravating as a vet player, it could very well drive off new players.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Decius
Rynnik
ignoring the fact that people don't seem to be worried about healing MORE at high level. Most people seem like they would be happy with healing the SAME as a low level character once the high and low both have the applicable keywords maxed out. Most people seem like they have a problem with healing LESS then a low level character.
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300) is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.
Rynnik
Decius
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300) is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.

How about your option 2. What if the system worked as follows:

Level 1 minor cure, match 1 keyword: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 1 keywords: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 2 keywords: heal 200 HP
Level 3 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
Level 4 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Stilachio Thrax
Rynnik
Decius
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300) is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.

How about your option 2. What if the system worked as follows:

Level 1 minor cure, match 1 keyword: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 1 keywords: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 2 keywords: heal 200 HP
Level 3 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
Level 4 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP

This… I don't understand why people have a problem with this. What armor the recipient is wearing should be irrelevant. make it solely about the caster, the spell/orison/cantrip level and the implement used for casting.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Tabomo
Decius
Rynnik
ignoring the fact that people don't seem to be worried about healing MORE at high level. Most people seem like they would be happy with healing the SAME as a low level character once the high and low both have the applicable keywords maxed out. Most people seem like they have a problem with healing LESS then a low level character.
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300)is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.

See this is something I disagree with. If someone with minimum hp (which I think now is 700 hp) recovers 300 hp with a minor cure, and someone with 1400 hp recovers 300 hp with a minor cure, it is already "hurting" the higher level player to not level up that cure spell, because 300 hp is much less of a percentage of his hp than the new guy. Higher level guy is going to be taking more dmg from higher level foes, so the fact that he hasn't trained up his cure is already negatively impacting him from a percentage standpoint. If for example, rank 4 (with matching keywords) would heal 500 or 600 hp, then I think there is still a strong incentive to level up your cure ranks.
Decius
Rynnik
Decius
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300) is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.

How about your option 2. What if the system worked as follows:

Level 1 minor cure, match 1 keyword: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 1 keywords: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 2 keywords: heal 200 HP
Level 3 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
Level 4 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
So, no t2 healing? T3 foci don't heal more than t1 foci?
That's the constant effect, with the added "bonus" that until training it up new clerics can't heal effectively at all.
Decius
Tabomo
Decius
Rynnik
ignoring the fact that people don't seem to be worried about healing MORE at high level. Most people seem like they would be happy with healing the SAME as a low level character once the high and low both have the applicable keywords maxed out. Most people seem like they have a problem with healing LESS then a low level character.
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300)is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.

See this is something I disagree with. If someone with minimum hp (which I think now is 700 hp) recovers 300 hp with a minor cure, and someone with 1400 hp recovers 300 hp with a minor cure, it is already "hurting" the higher level player to not level up that cure spell, because 300 hp is much less of a percentage of his hp than the new guy. Higher level guy is going to be taking more dmg from higher level foes, so the fact that he hasn't trained up his cure is already negatively impacting him from a percentage standpoint. If for example, rank 4 (with matching keywords) would heal 500 or 600 hp, then I think there is still a strong incentive to level up your cure ranks.
Are you suggesting a percentage increase based on the caster's hp, or one based on the recipients'? Do I need to point out the problems either way?
Stilachio Thrax
Decius
Rynnik
How about your option 2. What if the system worked as follows:

Level 1 minor cure, match 1 keyword: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 1 keywords: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 2 keywords: heal 200 HP
Level 3 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
Level 4 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
So, no t2 healing? T3 foci don't heal more than t1 foci?
That's the constant effect, with the added "bonus" that until training it up new clerics can't heal effectively at all.

Right now with the implemented system, new clerics can't heal effectively either. At least with what Rynnik proposed, they can heal a bit and aren't penalized for joining a group of vets.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
 
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