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Consumables and Effect Power

Rynnik
Decius
Rynnik
Decius
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300) is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.

How about your option 2. What if the system worked as follows:

Level 1 minor cure, match 1 keyword: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 1 keywords: heal 100 HP
Level 2 minor cure, match 2 keywords: heal 200 HP
Level 3 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
Level 4 minor cure, match 3 keywords: heal 300 HP
So, no t2 healing? T3 foci don't heal more than t1 foci?
That's the constant effect, with the added "bonus" that until training it up new clerics can't heal effectively at all.
Sure. What is your objection here? I mean it wouldn't be hard to brainstorm around that aspect of the issue.

The point is that player psychology doesn't like numbers getting smaller and less shiny as player power goes up. It isn't hard to achieve the same design goals while working around that consideration.

Personally I sort of like the whole system and don't agree with Tink's premise based solely on personally, my perspective being that I don't give one flying fuck if anyone ever buys a T1 consumable in this game. But I CAN still wrap my head around someone else's perspective, that there are players who MIGHT care about that very much, and try moving along a conversation in that vein and while contributing positively to discussions. You should try that some time.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
KarlBob
Nihimon
Forgive me if I have a little distrust about the motives of those who have made a habit of trying to smear my reputation personally, trying to murder Phaeros members enough to make them regret ever joining us (their words), and trying to belittle and divide the Everbloom Alliance practically every time I check these forums. Do you think it's an accident that they repeatedly call it "the Brighthaven Alliance"?
Forgiven. I do, however, feel that it was a stretch to link "I think EPow/EPro should not apply to consumables, for the following reasons," to "I want unlimited, toxic PVP."

The more threads we have that don't turn into fights between the Big Two Alliances, the happier I am.
Tabomo
to get back to the actual discussion at hand, I think that consumables should heal a listed, static amount regardless of the recipient of the heal. I think heal orisons should increase in effectiveness based on the rank/keyword of the user of the heal, regardless of the recipient of the heal.

this actually mirrors TT as well. a cure pot is always 1d8+1, but if the spell is cast by a cleric as an actual spell, it can go from 1d8+1 to 1d8+5 depending on his level. cure mod pot is 2d8+3 but the actual spell can go up to 2d8+10.

you could make each tier of potion somewhere in the middle of the amt healed for that tier of orison, where a T1 cure pot is better than rank 1 minor cure but worse than rank 3. and do the same for each tier. this makes both an incentive for people training cures to train to higher ranks, and an incentive for potion buyers to want to buy higher tier potions. easy peasy.
Doc
I've never seen Decius (to his credit) stray from the obvious discussion on game mechanics in order to ad hominem the argument away, so clearly it's possible to have in-game rivalries and yet still try to crowdforge this game together.
Nihimon
Tabomo
this actually mirrors TT as well. a cure pot is always 1d8+1, but if the spell is cast by a cleric as an actual spell, it can go from 1d8+1 to 1d8+5 depending on his level. cure mod pot is 2d8+3 but the actual spell can go up to 2d8+10.

In PFRPG, a Level 20 Character will have about twenty times the Hit Points of a Level 1 Character. In PFO, a Level 20 Character will have about three times the Hit Points of a Level 1 Character.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Tabomo
Nihimon
Tabomo
this actually mirrors TT as well. a cure pot is always 1d8+1, but if the spell is cast by a cleric as an actual spell, it can go from 1d8+1 to 1d8+5 depending on his level. cure mod pot is 2d8+3 but the actual spell can go up to 2d8+10.

In PFRPG, a Level 20 Character will have about twenty times the Hit Points of a Level 1 Character. In PFO, a Level 20 Character will have about three times the Hit Points of a Level 1 Character.

Yeah, and in the TT, a fireball cast by an 8th level wizard will easily wipe 20 gobs, and could potentially wipe 20 ogres, yet the dmg is VASTLY reduced in PFO. So they make the increases that come with higher trained ranks smaller increases than in the TT. The core idea remains the same.
Gog
I vaguely recall something along the lines of equivalent character power for PFO's level 1-20 roughly maps to TT's level 6-12, or something along those lines, so bear in mind that comparison to TT levels needs additional massaging to be valid.
^This is Dak (Charlie George). RIP <Guurzak>
Nihimon
Guurzak
I vaguely recall something along the lines of equivalent character power for PFO's level 1-20 roughly maps to TT's level 6-12…

That was usually in the context of the scope of the Characters' actions, not their "power level".
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Yrme
Tabomo
you could make each tier of potion somewhere in the middle of the amt healed for that tier of orison, where a T1 cure pot is better than rank 1 minor cure but worse than rank 3. and do the same for each tier. this makes both an incentive for people training cures to train to higher ranks, and an incentive for potion buyers to want to buy higher tier potions. easy peasy.

Could they merely make each potion do a fixed amount by figuring the EPow and divide by fixed number representing the EDef of a solidly random player? Just use the EDef of T2+2 character - any character that can get to T2 proficiency can frankly get there in less than a month. Potions won't help the T1 characters as much, but it makes things more simple.

(I'd prefer to have potions work as they're currently set up. Use it as an entry point to train people up on EPow and EDef.)
At some point, crowdforging suggestions seem to be like fan fiction. Some good, some bad, some repetitious and predictable. But maybe there are some gems out there.
Decius
Tabomo
Decius
Tabomo
Decius
Rynnik
ignoring the fact that people don't seem to be worried about healing MORE at high level. Most people seem like they would be happy with healing the SAME as a low level character once the high and low both have the applicable keywords maxed out. Most people seem like they have a problem with healing LESS then a low level character.
Either you heal less when healing up, you don't heal better after training more, or you heal more at higher levels. I think that the option of flat healing (everybody's Minor Cure increases target HP by 300)is a bad idea because it means nobody has incentive to train Minor Cure above level 1 and because everybody with a focus is equally good at healing.

I think that applying epow but not applying epro to healing is also bad, since that would mean that my current Minor Cure would do 510 hp of healing, and I'm not taking 70% more HP damage while fighting horizontally because I don't have 70% more hp than a new character.

See this is something I disagree with. If someone with minimum hp (which I think now is 700 hp) recovers 300 hp with a minor cure, and someone with 1400 hp recovers 300 hp with a minor cure, it is already "hurting" the higher level player to not level up that cure spell, because 300 hp is much less of a percentage of his hp than the new guy. Higher level guy is going to be taking more dmg from higher level foes, so the fact that he hasn't trained up his cure is already negatively impacting him from a percentage standpoint. If for example, rank 4 (with matching keywords) would heal 500 or 600 hp, then I think there is still a strong incentive to level up your cure ranks.
Are you suggesting a percentage increase based on the caster's hp, or one based on the recipients'? Do I need to point out the problems either way?

I'm suggesting neither. I'm suggesting that the amount of hp healed should increase as a function of rank/keywords matched for the healer, and have nothing to do with the armor/ranks of the recipient.
That has the effect of making the power curve steeper, as characters with better feats and gear not only take less damage but have stronger beneficial effects across the board.
 
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