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EE v8 TEST SERVER Release Notes

Brighthaven Leader
Well bags are suppose to net us quite a bit by themselves.

If you are dedicated hauler, with T3 bags, I think you can haul something like 200 Encumbrance. Basically, you don't have to bank a lot lol.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Hobson Fiffledown
Wait..? The farmville part of the game is going to be horribly tedious? Who knew? smile

I am much more concerned with the feuding mechanics. I was really looking forward to having at least some holding open-raid time during PvP windows. Allocating INF and setting up a time to (attempt to) destroy a holding sounds fine, but kiboshing general banditry and open PvP in favor of an INF-only system sounds really boring (like WoT boring).

Come for the open-world PvP, stay because we need people to work the wheelbarrows.
This space for rent.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Hobson Fiffledown
Wait..? The farmville part of the game is going to be horribly tedious? Who knew? smile

I am much more concerned with the feuding mechanics. I was really looking forward to having at least some holding open-raid time during PvP windows. Allocating INF and setting up a time to (attempt to) destroy a holding sounds fine, but kiboshing general banditry and open PvP in favor of an INF-only system sounds really boring (like WoT boring).

Come for the open-world PvP, stay because we need people to work the wheelbarrows.

Based on these patch notes that hasn't changed. You can still raid someone's outposts during the PvP window, you just have a chance of reputation issues if you do not first feud them. I think the line of thinking is any spontaneous and random PvP related activity has a chance of reputation losses, while anything that is declared with influence does not as something is paid by the attacker ahead of time to allow it and both sides know what's going on. Feuds will of course be needed for capture or destruction.

That's my reading of it anyways.
Illililili
The melee weapon damage increases are pretty high. Should not the mage and cleric melee range spells get a similar damage increase (and range increase if that has not happened)? Right now there is no point for a cleric (or mage) to cast any of those spells (or the melee range damage expendables) as they are better off picking up a weapon and swinging it.
Hobson Fiffledown
I hope it is like that, Duffy. I read it as there would be no raids on holdings unless INF was spent. Either way, some mules would be a nice idea…and war ponies.
This space for rent.
Illililili
Long post incoming.

I want to talk about logging in. Specifically, incentives or disincentives to do so.

Some games have incentives to have you log in every day. For example, in Star Trek Online, the first mission you run every day gives you a bonus of 50 extra mission tokens. This resets every 20 hours (not 24 hours, or you end up missing days if you are a casual player) so you can log in every day, do a mission, get a good reward.

In STO, to balance casual and hard core gamers, casual gamers (casual is log in once a day for an hour or less) are greatly rewarded for the first log in, and a casual gamer can accomplish about 50% in that one hour of a player that plays for 20 hours straight. That is a huge bonus for being casual, and yet the powergames still manage to stay ahead.

In Hearthstone, every day I log in a get a new (pseudo)random quest, which awards 40 to 100 gold (average 60). This quest resets at 2am every day. Once that quest is done, I get 10 gold for every 3 games I win (so about once an hour I get 10 gold). So the hard core powergamer can play for 20 hours in a day, make 260 gold (4x the casual player), but the casual player still has that daily incentive to log in.

PFO is the opposite. Every day we feel like we must log in, as the local escalations will have popped again, and need to be dealt with. This is NOT fun. This is a chore. This is a DISincentive to log in. I realize GW has put a lot of programming time and design time into how escalations work. But they DO NOT draw in players. They do the opposite. This needs fixed.

Now the plan in 8.X is to force players to haul crap around. For no reward other than that they can potentially train when they have skill points available. This is not even a chore, this is a job. And not a good job. This is complete mindless drudgery. If I was a ditch digger I could at least get paid for doing a horrible job. You expect players to log in every day to do this? RECONSIDER how you are motivating your player base. Right now, I am very tempted to ask all the players in the game to form 3 companies in one settlement, and have that one settlement have just enough outposts and holdings to have everyone train up to 20 in everything. This would be done to minimize the amount of "job" that PFO is turning into. That is NOT what you want to design into a game!

Backing up a bit, there is NO incentive to log into PFO every day. In fact, once you need 20 to 40k xp for your next skill, you DO NOT want to log in, so you can save the skillpoints without being pulled to spend what you have to upgrade some minor ability.

You put quests in the game, I would suggest changing them. Make the first quest done every day award 100 copper, and make the quest "live" instead of the current "flat". By "live" I mean the quest giver next to the bank looks at the nearest escalation hex, and IF there is an escalation up, it says to go kill 10 of the WEAKEST mobs in that escalation. If there is no escalation up, then look to the next escalation hex (within 5 hexes of current city) and give quest there. If no escalations up then pick mob X that lives in hex next to city to go kill mobs there. These are not fun quests, but at least they give players incentive to log in every day.

Maybe give a choice of quest (only 1 per day). Easy quest as above. Medium quest is kill double the number of mobs for 150% more copper. For hard quest they must complete the local escalation, and that gives 200% copper, but hard not available if escalation already dead.

Now do the same for a gather quest (player can only do 1 gathering or mob or PvP quest per 20 hour period). The gathering quest code is already in the game, but you would need to add code for the quest giver in each city to look at surrounding hexes and give quests according to what exists there.

PvP quests also need to be added. But they can't be "kill X" because too often the PvP is lopsided. Perhaps make the PvP quests only available if your company is currently in a feud. Then make the quest "go red to opposing players 10 times". Sure, players will abuse it. But at least they will be logging in.

That would fix the current disincentive to log in. You still need to fix the "chore - job" that 8.X is. I would suggest making the "4 to 1 resource" into a "2 to 1 resource" as a START, so people do NOT have to haul crap if they don't want to. Hauling crap should provide a reward commensurate with the risk. Perhaps have each outpost/holding pay X copper per item moved? There has to be POSITIVE INCENTIVE to do this task! Relook at how you are motivating players in the game, and understand players play your game to escape from the drudgery of reality; players are NOT looking for a second job that they can do for free…

Edit: add:

PvP right now is DIS-INCENTIVIZED. There is NO reward for engaging in it, other than "bragging rights" (or if you can screw over another group of players in a sufficient manner to offset your own losses), and the gear durability penalty makes players only want to engage in PvP if the chance of victory is 100%, so they do not lose gear. Again, this is poor design. If you want to make PFO a PvP centric game, then you need to give players a PvP carrot of sufficient size to offset the negatives that the players engaging can potentially lose.
Tuoweit
"Encumbrance bonuses now go away properly when a feat is no longer in use".

Does this include when Strengthened/Mighty effects wear off, or is it simply a fix for armor feat/feature swapping?
Saiph the Fallen
Illililili
Long post incoming.

I want to talk about logging in. Specifically, incentives or disincentives to do so.

Some games have incentives to have you log in every day. For example, in Star Trek Online, the first mission you run every day gives you a bonus of 50 extra mission tokens. This resets every 20 hours (not 24 hours, or you end up missing days if you are a casual player) so you can log in every day, do a mission, get a good reward.

In STO, to balance casual and hard core gamers, casual gamers (casual is log in once a day for an hour or less) are greatly rewarded for the first log in, and a casual gamer can accomplish about 50% in that one hour of a player that plays for 20 hours straight. That is a huge bonus for being casual, and yet the powergames still manage to stay ahead.

In Hearthstone, every day I log in a get a new (pseudo)random quest, which awards 40 to 100 gold (average 60). This quest resets at 2am every day. Once that quest is done, I get 10 gold for every 3 games I win (so about once an hour I get 10 gold). So the hard core powergamer can play for 20 hours in a day, make 260 gold (4x the casual player), but the casual player still has that daily incentive to log in.

PFO is the opposite. Every day we feel like we must log in, as the local escalations will have popped again, and need to be dealt with. This is NOT fun. This is a chore. This is a DISincentive to log in. I realize GW has put a lot of programming time and design time into how escalations work. But they DO NOT draw in players. They do the opposite. This needs fixed.

Now the plan in 8.X is to force players to haul crap around. For no reward other than that they can potentially train when they have skill points available. This is not even a chore, this is a job. And not a good job. This is complete mindless drudgery. If I was a ditch digger I could at least get paid for doing a horrible job. You expect players to log in every day to do this? RECONSIDER how you are motivating your player base. Right now, I am very tempted to ask all the players in the game to form 3 companies in one settlement, and have that one settlement have just enough outposts and holdings to have everyone train up to 20 in everything. This would be done to minimize the amount of "job" that PFO is turning into. That is NOT what you want to design into a game!

Backing up a bit, there is NO incentive to log into PFO every day. In fact, once you need 20 to 40k xp for your next skill, you DO NOT want to log in, so you can save the skillpoints without being pulled to spend what you have to upgrade some minor ability.

You put quests in the game, I would suggest changing them. Make the first quest done every day award 100 copper, and make the quest "live" instead of the current "flat". By "live" I mean the quest giver next to the bank looks at the nearest escalation hex, and IF there is an escalation up, it says to go kill 10 of the WEAKEST mobs in that escalation. If there is no escalation up, then look to the next escalation hex (within 5 hexes of current city) and give quest there. If no escalations up then pick mob X that lives in hex next to city to go kill mobs there. These are not fun quests, but at least they give players incentive to log in every day.

Maybe give a choice of quest (only 1 per day). Easy quest as above. Medium quest is kill double the number of mobs for 150% more copper. For hard quest they must complete the local escalation, and that gives 200% copper, but hard not available if escalation already dead.

Now do the same for a gather quest (player can only do 1 gathering or mob or PvP quest per 20 hour period). The gathering quest code is already in the game, but you would need to add code for the quest giver in each city to look at surrounding hexes and give quests according to what exists there.

PvP quests also need to be added. But they can't be "kill X" because too often the PvP is lopsided. Perhaps make the PvP quests only available if your company is currently in a feud. Then make the quest "go red to opposing players 10 times". Sure, players will abuse it. But at least they will be logging in.

That would fix the current disincentive to log in. You still need to fix the "chore - job" that 8.X is. I would suggest making the "4 to 1 resource" into a "2 to 1 resource" as a START, so people do NOT have to haul crap if they don't want to. Hauling crap should provide a reward commensurate with the risk. Perhaps have each outpost/holding pay X copper per item moved? There has to be POSITIVE INCENTIVE to do this task! Relook at how you are motivating players in the game, and understand players play your game to escape from the drudgery of reality; players are NOT looking for a second job that they can do for free…

Edit: add:

PvP right now is DIS-INCENTIVIZED. There is NO reward for engaging in it, other than "bragging rights" (or if you can screw over another group of players in a sufficient manner to offset your own losses), and the gear durability penalty makes players only want to engage in PvP if the chance of victory is 100%, so they do not lose gear. Again, this is poor design. If you want to make PFO a PvP centric game, then you need to give players a PvP carrot of sufficient size to offset the negatives that the players engaging can potentially lose.

I agree that there is no incentive to log into PFO (right now) and/or PvP; I haven't logged in in quite some time. I'd add to your list of things "world bosses" that wonder throughout Golarion. These guys could be interesting fights that players have to search for (or happen upon) and would have to be dropped with a decent amount of players. I'm not exactly sure what they should drop, but it of course should be relatively nice. Just a little something other than escalations for PvE oriented players to partake in.
Ryan Dancey
The design does not require you to move anything at all. If you put a Holding in a hex that can generate the Bulk Resources it needs from Outposts in that Hex, you need take no action whatsoever. It will happily sit there and "cook" Bulk Resources in peace and provide a Vault.

If you opt in to using Holdings and Outposts that are not mutually reinforcing or if you decide to upgrade a Holding so that it requires Bulk Resources the local Outposts don't produce, then you have choices to make. But you're making choices - you are not forced into those choices.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Sooo the fact that none of the holdings that boost resource production use the resource they boost is intentional to force us to make sub-optimal resource picks (since trade is out of the question right now)? And in turn the training holdings are designed to only work in certain hexes since you cannot produce everything in most regions and would need to trade or haul it in from somewhere else?

We're supposed to be playing sub-optimal and self-gimping because a feature is missing? To me it sounds like the feature that's missing is just a lot more important to the holding upkeep system than you anticipated. Without it we're being forced to play poorly. The case you outlined is not an interesting choice, it's a false choice because we only have one answer to be effective and the answer is bad enough that the vocal minority and leaders are scared they won't be able to get anyone to do it.

I can tell you our plan already, we're gonna ignore holdings and outpost until mules or whatever are added. We'll leave up what we got, but we're just going to let them go inactive (as long as that doesn't destroy them for the near future) and we'll deal with them when settlement upkeep and better hauling comes in. They should continue collecting resources in the meantime so we'll just collect it later. Cause that's a better alternative then tearing down everything we built cause we didn't assume we would have to make sub-optimal choices to get by while waiting for a feature to get added.
 
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