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Why is influence required to PvP?

Midnight
Tuoweit
The various systems all tie together in order to create more social ties between players. The group of PvP'ers who only want to do that should find some PvE players who are willing to generate influence for them. In general, groups who only want to engage in a narrow portion of the game (whether that's PvP, PvE, or crafting) need to connect with other players interested in those other areas to cover all their bases or simply accept that they'll face extra difficulties.

None of the other specializations require influence to begin and continue their specialization.

And while we eventually coerce all players into settlement living and its social ties, all those other specializations can survive for months before eventually taking a knee and submitting to the alpha aristocracy.

That concept of having months to decide where you best fit is incredibly important in building QUALITY social ties between players.

He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Caldeathe Baequiannia
As Fanndis said. Factions will be a game changer. Until then, they are pretty heavily constrained, with joining a group that has already built influence. I expect it is hampering the size of the player base currently. Hopefully they'll get somewhere soon.

Part of me thinks, in hindsight, that Factions were probably one of the key mechanisms that should have been working on day one.

This was supported by Stephen Cheney / Lee Hammock as being the easiest of the PVP systems to implement. You are correct, it should have been implemented earlier. I would argue that many systems should have been put into place, BEFORE, player run settlements. The natural progression was not followed with PFO, and that is perhaps its major misstep.

1. Character Development
2. Company Development
3. Faction Development
4. Settlement Development
5. Nation Development

PFO has leapfrogged over steps 2 and 3, and even though companies are in game, they are still not fully functional. I think that there should be a major revamp of the primary social structure vision of the game. Settlement before Company (Guild) has clearly been rejected and I believe it has hindered the game's population potential for growth.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Midnight
Tuoweit
Midnight
In nearly all MMOs, the auction house is the device that allows players to engage in specialization. Dedicated gatherers can get everything they need by engaging in their one fetish and auctioning their rewards. Refiners… same. Crafters… same. Players who PREFER fighting brain dead AI monsters… same. Even banditry can engage in their specialized fetish and plausibly survive by auctioning their "rewards" through the auction house. So I don't think a military company would be asking for "more of a break than the rest of us get" for wanting viable specialization. All those other specializations are already viable and require NO influence to begin or continue their specialization.

You're leaving out the bit where those crafters and PvE'ers need PvP players to protect their assets, just as much as PvP'ers need others for influence. You can't buy PvP'ers on an auction house.

The average PvE-er doesn't even get CHASED (much less caught) in any particular month. The tiny minority who do get caught lose a big 20 minutes of the rewards of their specialization. Banditry is a boogeyman. There may come a day where PvP protection is needed, but for the last 4 months, even the small minority of gatherers who get chased have (in nearly all cases) simply made poor life choices by picking a bellicose settlement/alliance to associate with. Their settlements might even "win", but they never needed that "protection"; they'd have been a thousand times safer in the peaceful settlements that don't get interdicted. The sheepdogs are pulling an age old con… a protection racket. "You need our protection"… even as they repeatedly poke the hornet's nest to remind people how dangerous the world is.

PvE-ers can start their specializations with zero influence. PvE-ers also don't need influence to continue their specialization, even as they generate influence.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
Caldeathe Baequiannia
As Fanndis said. Factions will be a game changer. Until then, they are pretty heavily constrained, with joining a group that has already built influence. I expect it is hampering the size of the player base currently. Hopefully they'll get somewhere soon.

Remove the influence cost of feuds next patch, and (barring another PvP breaking bug) you'll double the number of active players in this game by the end of August. Many of us have been holding off recommending the game to PvPers. The 2 weeks before the feuding bug slammed PvP to a halt (when tab targeting in open PvP hexes became more sensible) was so fun that I started reaching out to my old allies from other games. Not all of them eschew the PvE side of such games, but I'd like to attract THOSE folks too. We should welcome players who want fights against people who want fights (or at least against people who expect to fight for whatever reward/privilege holdings grant), and we ought not require them to pick daisies or fight brain dead monsters or to become unsanctioned PvP villains.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
GW made banditry even less likely when they sanitized PFO even further, removing the Open PVP window of Tower hexes. Let's face it, there is no more PVP in PFO than there is in LotRO or WoW or any other "PVP is an after thought" MMO.

As soon as the words "Organized PVP" were uttered, Open World PVP was removed from PFO, for all intents and purposes. Maybe if they made "Sanctioned (Feud based) PVP full loot, that may save the game's PVP aspect.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Midnight
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
GW made banditry even less likely when they sanitized PFO even further, removing the Open PVP window of Tower hexes. Let's face it, there is no more PVP in PFO than there is in LotRO or WoW or any other "PVP is an after thought" MMO.
.

Now that it costs influence to PvP there is 99% LESS consensual PvP in the game than in WoW.

24 hours a day you can get a fight with willing participants in WoW and you gain rewards even when you lose.

I just don't know what GW is thinking. Their low budget sandbox can't survive without conflict, and the answer to their woes is MORE conflict. So far, offensive gathering is this game's most accessible PvP.

I'm picking your daisies, Nihimon, take that! smile

Is that supposed to be satisfying?
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Brighthaven Leader
Here is what they are doing around Settlements/After Settlements: (IMO I think this will be around EE 14-16 in the fall)

They will have Factions, 3 different levels that you will be able to join.

Level 1 - Bandits vs Merchants
Level 2 - Aspis Consortium vs Pathfinder Society
Level 3 - Iomedea's Knights vs Thornkeep vs Hell Knights (I think this is all three starter cities vs each other)

All you have to do is join one group for each level, flag yourself PvP Open, and you will be able to PvP anyone that is red to you at any time. Furthermore, your settlement can build several structures to each level furthering reputation with each faction and increasing your PvP chances OUTSIDE of the political structure of the game.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Midnight
Cheatle for TEO
Here is what they are doing around Settlements/After Settlements: (IMO I think this will be around EE 14-16 in the fall)

They will have Factions, 3 different levels that you will be able to join.

Level 1 - Bandits vs Merchants
Level 2 - Aspis Consortium vs Pathfinder Society
Level 3 - Iomedea's Knights vs Thornkeep vs Hell Knights (I think this is all three starter cities vs each other)

All you have to do is join one group for each level, flag yourself PvP Open, and you will be able to PvP anyone that is red to you at any time. Furthermore, your settlement can build several structures to each level furthering reputation with each faction and increasing your PvP chances OUTSIDE of the political structure of the game.

That sounds fascinating for a company that wants to wait until December for consensual PvP. (You say Fall, but didn't they just move to 3 week cycles?)

In the meantime…

Game… dying.

Conflict… almost non-existent (except on the forums).

edit: that came off less friendly than I'd like. I really do intend my flippant response, but I greatly appreciate your input on an eventual solution I know much less about. My flippant response is meant towards that development schedule, and not towards you, personally, Cheatle.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Duffy Swiftshadow
Well here's the thing, it's Early Enrollment, you knew there wasn't gonna be every feature on day one or even 100. You know they can't just do everything at once. You know they want everything to be well integrated instead of seperated. To make your PvP matter it needs to have cost and have a benefit. Right now, it's only starting to get there with Feuds for towers (once they fix the bugs anyways). When they add factions you can satisfy your craving for random meaningless PvP (and yet still pursue some factional rewards I guess?). When they add mules, banditry can actually be rewarding. Which means guard duty can be a thing. Which means reputation should be more of a balancing act than a general PvP punishment. Once we can customize our settlements development Index is in and we can declare settlement to settlement wars! You see how this works? Nothing is in a vacuum. They need just as many 'PvE' activities to support the PvP activities in this game, so until the underlying support is there certain activities are difficult or impossible.

The intent of this game is that no action that causes conflict is 'free'. That's their starting point and yes it's currently pretty incomplete, so it appears more heavy handed than it will be in long run. Influence is that cost, do you dedicate it entirely to infrastructure support? Or do you save it to fight people? You should ultimately have well rounded settlements made up of companies doing both and with some cross over. You need PvE (Escalations, crafting, hauling, etc… ) to support your PvP actions. Because if you don't, then it's all meaningless capture the flag.
Midnight
Duffy, all of that is sensible for longterm settlement level game design. It is why this player tier 2 gathers, tier 2 refines, tier 2 crafts, and runs tier 2 escalations. I'm all about doing what my settlement needs of me, and I totally get the designed needed interdependence at the longterm settlement level.

But what changed THIS MONTH is that sanctioned PvP just became unavailable to a NEW company. It is a giant step backwards for PvPers who don't want to be villains. I'm going to repeat it and wish I could say it in 48 point font:

Requiring influence for SANCTIONED PvP is a GIANT step backwards for new PvP companies who don't want to be villains.

It isn't about a game that isn't finished, yet. It is about a game that actually made sanctioned PvP *LESS* accessible than it was the previous 4 months, JUST as PvP was starting to look good to people (after the devs fixed the going red game mechanic).

New companies have only a few months before being coerced into the settlement level interdependence you describe. I'd like them to be able to do what they enjoy against consensual opponents, while they decide which of the alpha aristocracy they bend a knee to, or before being forced to decide which other specialization companies they'll need to join with to seize and maintain a settlement of their own.

Every other specialization (including UNSANCTIONED PvP) has the viable option to delay their entry into the kind of interdependence you describe.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
 
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