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Breaking Gear

Rynnik
https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/2410/?page=33#post-31842

So obviously enough gear isn't being sunk in this game to properly drive a sandbox economy and it is a big enough concern to the devs that, in my opinion, they are willing to dance with the devil on something like shrine camping to chance more gear being broken.

So this is a thread to crowd forge some more player conflict or at least start a discussion ABOUT player conflict so that we can find ways to increase our gear churn in a positive way together!



My perspective:

I think the key reason there is no substantially gear loss going on is due to the political landscape of the game. Right now it is EoX against EBA + Forgeholm + Alderwag + Ozem's Vigil. There is no other PvP going on in the game that I am aware of. PFU doesn't PvP, Duffy doesn't PvP, and HRC doesn't have anyone to fight without picking a side in EoX vs EBA+.

Because of this and due to the inherent number disparity there is very little actual gear destruction going on in this conflict, the only conflict actually taking place.

Tower battles generally result in minimal gear loss - if EBA+ shows up in force their is no fight at all which means the scenario where there is actually rolling fights with losses that have substantial ticks of dura removed are remarkably rare. It depends on EoX having an unusually large turn out so we can opt in to the fight or EBA+ having a really low turnout and not running away at even numbers. The net result is definitely very little gear lost.

Reputation severely curbs the sort of PvP where low numbers can pick off targets of opportunity and take the fight in skirmishes which are impromptu and actually flow based on who is on and active - not who shows for a CTA. I think this is the best form of PvP for gear loss though due to its adaptability to the situation at hand. There is always a place for it. If we are down and get a kill on a Phaeros player they can report it, guys who love a good brawl like Thorgrim and Dazyk can respond. More pvp kills happen. One side gets too big, it breaks apart. Rinse and repeat. I think that the key to gear loss rests here.

So where does that leave us?

I think the best move might be to institute 'MUTUAL WAR DECLARATIONS' that bypass reputation as a PvP limiter while waiting on tech. If EoX and EBA+ settlements could agree to opt in to killing each other right now at all times without rep loss I think the amount of gear being burned would greatly increase and we might see the churn we need to get the economy rolling and rest dev concerns about conflict levels.

It doesn't even have to be particularly fleshed out right now, but just a bootstrapped system using feud tech to allow us to get on with the business of lots of 'not by appointment' pvp so that gear actually gets blown up with some regularity.

Thoughts?
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Nihimon
There's nothing stopping you from using Feuds right now. In fact, nightcrawlers have Max Influence the last time I looked and should be getting back at least 80% of whatever they spend on Feuds. I don't see any reason to roll back the Reputation mechanics.

I'll also point out that "PvP for the lulz" - which is what it seems like a lot of Golgothans are really into - isn't the kind of PvP I like, and I doubt very many in the EBA particularly care for it either. It's "meaningless" for the most part, and largely seems to be done out of boredom or because it's what a particular player finds fun.

I agree PvP is a lot of fun, but I really like it to be significant - for example, by causing Towers to change hands, or something like that. I utterly despise the cat-and-mouse game that folks like Elsworth Sugarfoot seem to really get a kick out of.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Rynnik
I don't see you proposing anything that helps more gear break Nihimon.

And killing Phearites is NEVER PvP for lulz. Nothing meaningless about it at all.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Nihimon
Rynnik
I don't see you proposing anything that helps more gear break Nihimon.

From We need a policy about shrine camping:

Nihimon
Baron Malthius
Hmm, not sure how to go about adjusting item durability issues. Maybe have it drop by two points instead of one? Maybe having it go down more depending on the manner in which you were killed?

Caldeathe Baequiannia
Instead of changing the gear, could you more easily alter the amount of damage taken at each rez? (i.e. reintroduce the bug that did double damage [or even triple, or some 1-5 random], only make it everywhere.)

This idea seems worth pursuing. I'm not sure if Goblinworks has a way to determine who contributed the most towards a Character's death, but if you do:

1. Death to an NPC or Ally = 1 point of Durability loss.
2. Death in a Feud or in your Claimed Territory = 2 points of Durability loss.
3. Otherwise = 4 points of Durability loss.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Rynnik
Nihimon
Rynnik
I don't see you proposing anything that helps more gear break Nihimon.

From We need a policy about shrine camping:

Nihimon
Baron Malthius
Hmm, not sure how to go about adjusting item durability issues. Maybe have it drop by two points instead of one? Maybe having it go down more depending on the manner in which you were killed?

Caldeathe Baequiannia
Instead of changing the gear, could you more easily alter the amount of damage taken at each rez? (i.e. reintroduce the bug that did double damage [or even triple, or some 1-5 random], only make it everywhere.)

This idea seems worth pursuing. I'm not sure if Goblinworks has a way to determine who contributed the most towards a Character's death, but if you do:

1. Death to an NPC or Ally = 1 point of Durability loss.
2. Death in a Feud or in your Claimed Territory = 2 points of Durability loss.
3. Otherwise = 4 points of Durability loss.
I prefer Caldeathe's proposal of 20 dura for PC kills personally. You actually end up with a bit of an interesting side effect similar to Darkfall where you 'grind down' a set of armour in PvE to PvP dura and then wear it until you die.

Any ideas how to promote positive conflict so there are more player deaths as opposed to making each death cost more gear?
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Quijenoth Starkiller
Something I keep coming back to; I heard Lisa mention one time that we will eventually be able to take a Feud against us and "Upgrade" it to a War.

For me this sounds like a great concept - It would mean you would have to be careful who you actually feuded. minor skirmishes are one thing but if the people your skirmishing with Feuds suddenly upgrades it to full on war that lasts X amount of days, you may have bitten off more than you can chew!

Perhaps the Devs could chime in on their "vision"?
Quijenoth Starkiller Viceroy of Callambea
Company Leader of Beyond the Grave - www.beyond-pfo.com
Crafting Planner
Ryan Dancey
I worry about taking durability hits for PC kills up but I think that's an intriguing idea and something I'll make sure Lee thinks about. I'd really like to do it if we had some server-side ability to adjust the number so that if it turns out to be a horrible, horrible mistake we could patch in a change quickly.

My main concern is griefing. It would be trivially easy to really hurt people without any reason other than inflicting grief.
Rynnik
Ryan Dancey
I worry about taking durability hits for PC kills up but I think that's an intriguing idea and something I'll make sure Lee thinks about. I'd really like to do it if we had some server-side ability to adjust the number so that if it turns out to be a horrible, horrible mistake we could patch in a change quickly.

My main concern is griefing. It would be trivially easy to really hurt people without any reason other than inflicting grief.
I can't think of a situation where losing a set of gear is ever worse or even close to being equivalent to being trapped in a cycle where you load in and die up to 20 times. I don't see how you can say you are concerned about griefing in the one case and not in the other.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
There was that time two weekends back, when I tried to heal a companion and accidentally delivered the fatal blow via a level 4 Vital Strike with my bow instead. That would have been a very a tense moment….
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Rynnik
Caldeathe Baequiannia
There was that time two weekends back, when I tried to heal a companion and accidentally delivered the fatal blow via a level 4 Vital Strike with my bow instead. That would have been a very a tense moment….

Ha! It would have indeed!

Maybe I am the only person in game so far with a ton of gear banked, gold I don't know what to spend it on, and a mounting pile of random stuff that would have value if I could get motivated to move it for more gold I don't need. Maybe it is my EVE and Darkfall experiences and an expectation that stuff breaking is just how PvP sandboxes work. I don't see losing a set of gear being something that could inflict mental harm on the average joe player.

I have very distinct opinions though on how much harm going through 20 deaths at shrine can actually deliver to a real person's psyche. Not me btw. You could literally shrine camp me all day long (hot tip I would just log out personally) but there ARE people who that constitutes very real harassment to (some of them are playing PFO) and that it could be anyone means you don't DO IT to anyone.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
 
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