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Really Disappointed

Dreamslinger
I'm not sure where you got your expectations for PFO but they are pretty far off. What you describe as your impression of the game is almost exactly what the devs have been pitching since the Kickstarter and especially for early enrollment. Every thing about the way they described the vision for PFO was "EvE meets UO with the trappings of Pathfinder and Golarion". Several members of the original team had experience working on EvE and that got prominent mention if I remember correctly.

I can't really agree with DDO not being a good D&D game. They pretty much nailed 3.5 ED D&D with that game. I never made it to the end game but the dungeons were spot on and felt like D&D modules (especially when Gygax was doing the narrated bits). There were secret doors and traps, plenty of optional paths in dungeons, monsters had significant strengths and vulnerabilities. The character generation system gave you the freedom to create a wide variety of character types and even gave you the freedom to create characters so bad that they were almost unplayable (just like in 3.5). Multiclassing was similar to 3.5 letting you set your inner munchkin free to figure out how many levels of each class you wanted to splash and when to get the all of the feats and bonuses you wanted. You'd be hard preseed to find a truer transposition of D&D into an MMO that DDO was.
Tyncale
Dreamslinger
I'm not sure where you got your expectations for PFO but they are pretty far off. What you describe as your impression of the game is almost exactly what the devs have been pitching since the Kickstarter and especially for early enrollment. Every thing about the way they described the vision for PFO was "EvE meets UO with the trappings of Pathfinder and Golarion". Several members of the original team had experience working on EvE and that got prominent mention if I remember correctly.

I can't really agree with DDO not being a good D&D game. They pretty much nailed 3.5 ED D&D with that game. I never made it to the end game but the dungeons were spot on and felt like D&D modules (especially when Gygax was doing the narrated bits). There were secret doors and traps, plenty of optional paths in dungeons, monsters had significant strengths and vulnerabilities. The character generation system gave you the freedom to create a wide variety of character types and even gave you the freedom to create characters so bad that they were almost unplayable (just like in 3.5). Multiclassing was similar to 3.5 letting you set your inner munchkin free to figure out how many levels of each class you wanted to splash and when to get the all of the feats and bonuses you wanted. You'd be hard preseed to find a truer transposition of D&D into an MMO that DDO was.

Wanted to say that I agree with all of that too.

I never really understood all the flack that DDO got as a D&D game. I feel it is still a very different and refreshing beast in MMO-land to this very day. Graphics have gone a little dated but still very doable. One of the games still on my HD. The only problem with getting back to DDO has always been that the re-enter learning curve is always pretty steep, especially if you have been playing MMO's with a simpler UI and mechanics. smile
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Edam
I think the incredible broadside the D&D brand name took with the misguided release of 4th edition did not help DDO despite it being 3.5 based.
BlackDog
I played it for a few hours, certainly not enough time to experience the whole game but explore the first few areas. I am a player who likes to "Go on walkabout" and am more into exploring than chasing question marks. Interesting NPCs certainly make it a better game but not crucial. What I have seen in MMO game after game is bad repetition. You can go to WoW, and find vendors who sell the same gear that NO ONE uses. Why even have a vendor sell starter weapons when you can loot anything better in 1 minute? I realize that this game is waiting for the equivalent of the Tunnel in EQ back in the good old days. The one thing WoW had right was hub cities, and instant adventure. The basic quests taught a lesson. Even in old EQ, it had a steep learning curve, and there were certain places you had to learn were NOT SAFE. But I spent a lot of time chasing easter eggs, quests that had no written text for, or required you camp the stupid ring on an island for 22 hours, because the end result was unique.

So, I adventured, made it to Thornkeep? and spent my accumulation of XP on a variety of feats, not exactly sure of what I was doing. My reading of the initial new players guides said I couldnt really go wrong. Now what? I couldnt afford any kind of upgrade at the AH with my slightly over 1 silver in wealth, so I hit the road to make more. That didnt work either, no loot on the bandits/wolves/etc, or not enough to overcome the expense of dying, and no way to vendor the scraps. So, its got a crafting system I cant afford, making weapons no one can buy (low level), and ADVENTURE gets me zip, other than dead a few times at a net loss on gear and equipment. Even the poorest sidescroller has more interesting reasons to scroll right.

This game other than Pathfinder maps and names has NO connection for me to the tabletop, and thats where at least DDO and NWN connect. Even if they made a complete starter area, this would show intent to succeed, but the huge landscape full of nothing is boring. It seems like the game is designed for a text based social environment and not a game.
Daeglin
@Blackdog One of the hardest things for new players in PFO coming from tabletop and themepark MMOs is the absolute reliance you have on other players in the game. They are the vendors, they are the quest givers, they are the enemy (sometimes), they may even the damsel or dude in distress. Equipment loot will not drop but coin does. I guarantee you that had you asked in general, someone would have been happy to sell you basic gear for a pittance, and just have likely given to you. If you don't want to ask, there are multiple player organisations ( settlements) that outfit players if you join them. If you are determined to go it alone, coin can be made by killing mobs or gathering (no skill training required). Some basic goods can be crafted untrained as well. With training, better items are possible.

It's striking that very few people who take up tabletop have trouble adapting to cooperative group play, but stick them in a video game and it seems like too foreign a concept.

Edit: If your still interested in seeing what the game is really like when played with others, I invite you to call on myself or anyone from the High Road Covenant in game (in general or golarion.mumble.com port 3093) and we'll get you set up. Alternatively, ask for Pathfinder University and they will assist.
Good… Bad… I'm the guy with the bow.
Edam
Daeglin
It's striking that very few people who take up tabletop have trouble adapting to cooperative group play, but stick them in a video game and it seems like too foreign a concept.

It suspect is because tabletop home gamers tend to play with a group of close friends and family and are not comfortable in an online environment with total strangers. Hence the tendency for smallish tabletop player groups to want to do things like play solo and only interact with the NPCs, or run an entire settlement (intended for 1000s of eventual members) with just themselves and one or two friends.
Wyborn Cathmor
The thing people are not seeing is that the game IS full of completely fleshed out and programmed NPC's… they just happen to be controlled by other players.

What I mean is that in a standard table top game you are part of an adventuring party. As you travel you meet bandits and travelers. You come up against evil tyrants and deal with benevolent kings and these NPC's are all controlled by the DM.

In PFO these bandits, travelers, tyrants, and kings happen to be controlled by other people. They are fleshed out and fully articulated… well most of them.

As I have said before, we are the content.
Wyborn Cathmor of Keeper's Pass
"The first gift you ever receive is your family. We all grow from the seeds of our parents' plant."
-Parables of Erastil
Edam
Wyborn Cathmor
The thing people are not seeing is that the game IS full of completely fleshed out and programmed NPC's… they just happen to be controlled by other players.

What I mean is that in a standard table top game you are part of an adventuring party. As you travel you meet bandits and travelers. You come up against evil tyrants and deal with benevolent kings and these NPC's are all controlled by the DM.

In PFO these bandits, travelers, tyrants, and kings happen to be controlled by other people. They are fleshed out and fully articulated… well most of them.

As I have said before, we are the content.

Yep, a bit like EVE, if you just mine rocks and rescue the stupid Damsel over and over you soon get bored and quit. Other people are the content in EVE even if your main interaction with them is trying to sneak around lowsec in a blockade runner and avoid them completely.
Mbando
BlackDog
So, I adventured, made it to Thornkeep? and spent my accumulation of XP on a variety of feats, not exactly sure of what I was doing. My reading of the initial new players guides said I couldnt really go wrong. Now what? I couldnt afford any kind of upgrade at the AH with my slightly over 1 silver in wealth, so I hit the road to make more. That didnt work either, no loot on the bandits/wolves/etc, or not enough to overcome the expense of dying, and no way to vendor the scraps. So, its got a crafting system I cant afford, making weapons no one can buy (low level), and ADVENTURE gets me zip, other than dead a few times at a net loss on gear and equipment. Even the poorest sidescroller has more interesting reasons to scroll right.

Blackdog, this game isn't any fun unless you're in a settlement, working with other people. That's where the juice is.
A member of Ozem's Vigil, home to servants of Iomedae and her coming Paladins.
BlackDog

Blackdog, this game isn't any fun unless you're in a settlement, working with other people. That's where the juice is.

Working with other people to get what?

I get the concept, however I prefer to be self sufficient and self supporting, if I am part of a community, what do I bring other than a warm spot in the ranks? You can call it "Soloing" if you like, but the most common flaw in many of these MMOs is finding yourself in game with no one to help or adventure with, either because of numbers, game design, time of day, introverted game play, language barriers, or lack of a direction/quest. I do not want to owe anyone anything for my existence, or beg for a handout. So what if I do ask, and then some kind person gives me a +2 sword. Did I earn that somehow? No, its crap to me, no story behind it. Will I go try to recover my body? No, why should I when all I have to do is beg another. Can I make my own? Sure, given a long time of harvest/craft/recipe that a 2 week trial wont net me anything.

If the game designers want us to collaborate throughout a game, why start us in the middle of a 3 horse town with only other newbies and not in a major city where we can be assimilated properly, outfitted, and recruited? At this point, about 4 hrs in, I have no idea how other than by accident to find another player, where anything is in the world, or actually care. Im not trying to be negative, but I have played some really crappy MMOs and even they succeed on this. Heroic gameplay isnt growing or collecting carrots for my friends, its about kicking some monster ass and looting some treasure. Someone has sanitized this hot mess, or at least made it another game where you have to discover all the tricks and knacks to succeed by giving it an unnecessary learning curve.
 
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