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Taking a break - rant

koroshiya
After hearing more from other people regarding stealth and the lack of support regarding this issue, I've got to say I'm not as thrilled about this game as I was when I first stumbled upon it while reading up on new MMO news - as it appears that actual stealth will never happen because the majority of the current ~200 people who play and are active don't want it (For the people who responded about it, even to the negative, thanks for reading and responding! smile). That's totally fine and ok, if that is what you want, then that's cool too, but it's not for me, and I'll just move on to the next game that does have it.

I'll probably check the game out in 6-12 months or so to see how it's coming along, but I feel that this stealth issue and a few other issues do cause MMO based people to permanently leave, I'm just a lot more vocal about it. I wish you luck with the game and the development, as it does have a lot of potential.

Until stealth is fixed/upgraded/refined (whatever you want to use here), because actual stealth would be really useful, I think you're (potentially) losing out on a large MMO population base who like the stealth aspect of PVP, not just mobbing everywhere with the larger group always having the advantage. If your goal is to keep a smaller population of players, then that's cool too, and I think that's what you're going to end up having, especially with the way it's heading.

I just don't understand the issue with this, it's that way in almost every game, why would it be different in this game? I get you are trying to do something new and exciting, but some things just work. If your argument is then that this isn't every other game, then I'd have to say that there are plenty of aspects about the game that give it a unique enough feel without crippling players who like to stealth and ambush other players, so it's already not like every other game. PVP is in the game for a reason, I mean this isn't supposed to be a farmville/simcity simulator right? Simply put, stealth enhances PVP.

Even if a large group is harassing your settlement/group, it's easier to retaliate in appropriate situations with stealth and the right build (ambush their players near their settlement, etc.), especially with a smaller force, rather than just saying oh well and logging off for the night. Maybe go capture some of their bonus giving buildings/holdings/outposts/new content buildings (I don't know) that they need to keep extra player buffs and settlement buffs - that makes PVP dynamic and will get their attention at the same time.

I know that the game is still in early development, but I've been harping on about stealth for a good week and a half and not so much as a response from any game developer about it. I thought you guys [GW] were reading the forums? And I'm not talking about stealth movement speed, as you guys already addressed that, I'm referring to the ability to ambush/surprise other players with an initial attack from stealth - I understand it takes a whole lot of time to develop, but a simple response goes a long way to let me know that you hear me and you completely disagree or you hear me and it's interesting. If you are purposefully staying out of it to see what the community thinks, that's fine too, but a simple "we'll bring that up in a meeting sometime" also helps to let me not feel like the neglected stepchild in the back of the bus. If the answer is you disagree and it will never be the case, then please let me know so I can move on to the next best game. I also understand that you (may) have constraints with the content you can put in the game and other things related to the game, if you are constrained from implementing this into the game, then say so, any response is better than complete silence. I also understand you are a small team of developers, but I think 10+ days is more than enough time to have read the forum posts and give any [simple] response.

If you [GW] do respond to this post, please respond about the stealth mechanic first, I'm more interested in what you have to say about that rather than responding to my frustrations - I can just go repeatably punch a teddy bear for the frustration ( I joke smile).

Take away from my opinion what you want to, or disregard it, either way, that's cool, but I'm glad that I could at least have some very small influence in the crowd forging process of PFO.

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, I'm not trying to be a D, I'm just a little frustrated smile, overall the community is pretty great and that is the saving grace right now. If you think that asking for a simple response is unreasonable, that is alright as well, I'm sure they are very busy people with a lot of stuff going on and they can't answer every little thing that comes over the forums. To that, I say they have already acknowledged that rogues are under powered, so I would assume they would be paying a little more attention to the rogue posts to get ideas about how to enhance them, as well as give simple responses of acknowledgement that they have at least read it, or at the very least, paying attention to the crowd forging posts.

Good luck with the game and the development, it was pretty cool while it lasted smile
Thanks for reading!! smilesmile
and oh, /rant smile … now where is that teddy bear..? smilesmilesmilesmilesmile
- From the shadows.
Ryan Dancey
I'm not sure what you are asking for. The purpose of stealth is to make it harder to detect you, amd that's working just fine.
koroshiya
To be completely hidden from sight, maps, everything and pop out of from nothing to attack an unsuspecting target. Right now, the way I see stealth is just making you harder to target sure, but they still know where you are and can still locate you on the map. To me, that's hardly attacking an unaware target because they see you on the map.

If you do disappear from the map and disappear visually with much higher stealth level, then maybe I'm just not playing the game right yet.

Thanks for the extremely quick response :o
- From the shadows.
Ryan Dancey
You appear on the map and in the world as a function of the difference between your stealth and the other character's perception. New characters can't use stealth to "turn invisible", but well trained characters have to be very close to opponents with low Perception before they will be seen.
koroshiya
Ah, ok. Thank you very much for the helpful explanation! So, it does work like I think it does, I just need a much, much higher level rogue with much higher level stealth skill. That's good to know!smile

That's fair enough. However, when everyone has the matching perception skill level, it's kind of like being back to square one, right?. I see the scout armor feat provides a giant boost to stealth especially at max level, would this giant boost be enough to get me close enough to attack with a longbow undetected on someone that has maxed the perception skill alone (not using any kind of perception armor feat, utility perception, or whatever might exist in game that boosts perception other than the perception skill itself)?

Words cannot describe how much I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions about the game!!smilesmile
- From the shadows.
Midnight
Stealth turns perception into a counter. Many could simply ignore the perception skill, but PvPers will eventually get annoyed by stealthy folks, and in a high population game, even gatherers will be motivated to train perception.

But many players probably ignore perception for now.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Tyncale
Do not forget that it costs 183 days worth of XP(439980) to max out Perception to level 20. It costs the same to max out Stealth. You will have a skill of 200 then, and then you can get another 100 max through other bonusses like racial, gear-enchantment, buffs and such.

The first levels of Stealth and Perception are off course the cheapest to train since this is on a very steep curve.

I would like to see a graph, where Stealth is set against Perception, which shows at which distance the Stealther wil be noticable by the "Perceptionist".

I am sure that a 300 Stealth Rogue will be able to get pretty close to a Zero Perception player without being noticed, but this seems like an ideal situation. I have 80 Perception which only cost me 1379 xp since I got a racial bonus. A minor investment. How close will a 300 Stealth Rogue be able to get to me before I notice him?

If it only requires a minor investment in Perception to offset a 300 Stealth Rogue then it needs tweaking.

I want hard numbers(in yards please)! smile
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Doc
You appear on the map and in the world as a function of the difference between your stealth and the other character's perception. New characters can't use stealth to "turn invisible", but well trained characters have to be very close to opponents with low Perception before they will be seen.

My understanding, based on this thread here: https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/228/?page=9 -

- is that one of the Designers noticed a while back that the Stealth/Perception modifiers are broken and don't give hight level stealth nearly the advantage or stealth gain as it should by a larger percentage, and that by talking with other players it hasn't been fixed yet.
Hobson Fiffledown
What do you mean? Stealth is so OP that they had to give everyone +2 perception stones… Bwahahaha!

I'm fine with not going invisible (cheaters and all), but fix perception v stealth. My 10 stealth is about as useful as my 0 stealth. It really is a let down.
This space for rent.
koroshiya
Tyncale
If it only requires a minor investment in Perception to offset a 300 Stealth Rogue then it needs tweaking.

I want hard numbers(in yards please)! smile

You hit the nail right on the head with that. I agree that perception should counter stealth, but a 2 year old character with max rogue and max stealth should be able to get pretty close going undetected to an opponent that has half the perception. Maybe make it exponential returns instead of diminishing (or scale the same with xp cost)? That way really only people geared and skilled specifically to perceive stealth can perceive them, whereas a regular player will not have that focused of a counter.

As time goes on, I'm definitely going to map out in meters the various distances for different stealth vs perception. As an aside, personally I don't care about not making my character completely invisible as there are enough bushes, trees, and terrain features to hide in while stealthed (shielded from character icon being displayed on other players' map).

Will everyone be super stealthed? Of course not. Will it be super annoying to people getting attacked by stealthed rogues? You bet!! But it gives rogues something to work towards and makes pvp a little more interesting. smile
- From the shadows.
 
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