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Taking a break - rant

koroshiya
I just had an interesting thought, what if once you reach a level 20 rogue, you can then choose to further upgrade different "skill trees" so for a rogue, you could chose to invest in a stealth tree which upgrades your stealth even further, a poison tree which buffs whatever poison stuff that gets added later, a trap tree which buffs trap setting/disarming etc. That way even if I'm a rogue and meet a wizard on the battlefield, I can specialize in stealth and they may or may not be specialized in perceive. This gives them the option of countering it but they have to weigh the benefit of upgrading one of their trees more over perceive.

If this is no good, maybe allow us to equip a title on our character once we reach a level 20 skill to buff certain aspects, and of course only one title may be used at any given time. So maybe a stealth title is given, that if equipped, could increase the stealth another 150 or something like that.

Either of these suggestions would incentivize getting to max level and specializing in a certain skill (making each character even more unique), rather than just getting to lvl ~13 and training something else, especially if there isn't a drastic difference between lvl 13 and lvl 20 - why spend the extra gobs of xp?
- From the shadows.
Doc
As of August of *last* year, here is what Stephen said the status of the Stealth effect was working as:

So we tested Stealth in the office today and determined:
Stealth is absolutely reducing the distance at which you can be perceived.
It's reducing it by significantly less than expected.

200 Stealth vs. 10 Perception should let you get to 26.5% of your normal visibility, and it's only letting you get to about 50%. Equal Stealth vs. Perception should let you get to 55% of your normal visibility, and it's only letting you get to about 80% or 90%.

So that's getting bugged presently.

From: https://goblinworks.com/forum/post/1478/



So, I'm not sure any special Rogue extras for stealth are needed, it just needs to work properly the way it was intended.
Dreamslinger
Doc
As of August of *last* year, here is what Stephen said the status of the Stealth effect was working as:

So we tested Stealth in the office today and determined:
Stealth is absolutely reducing the distance at which you can be perceived.
It's reducing it by significantly less than expected.

200 Stealth vs. 10 Perception should let you get to 26.5% of your normal visibility, and it's only letting you get to about 50%. Equal Stealth vs. Perception should let you get to 55% of your normal visibility, and it's only letting you get to about 80% or 90%.

So that's getting bugged presently.

From: https://goblinworks.com/forum/post/1478/



So, I'm not sure any special Rogue extras for stealth are needed, it just needs to work properly the way it was intended.
If the desired numbers were what we were actually getting, that seems about right to me. Stealth should always be more effective that and equal level of perception but not so much so that the stealthed character can get right on top of the character with perception before being detected.

If perception needs to be able to counter stealth it shouldn't be passive. Have it trigger like stealth, apply a big decrease in speed and deactivate if any active feats are used, have the more power perception effect kick in after a round of having active perception toggled on. That would allow players that are actively guarding against sneaks to be more effective but only if they choose to.
Drogon
Don't go Koroshiya, take the time to work on getting your skills up and let the devs fix the stealth vs. perception problem…I'll even let you gank me outside of town while pretending not to see you sneak up on me if that will make you a happy rogue smile
HpoD - "I have, however, sat and watched as others took things more personally (on both sides) and became zealots, charging forward on a shining white horse into a pile of shit. Forum Warriors at their peak, striding the battlefield knee deep in the bloody, broken arguments of their adversaries before the burning village of their credibility….Chill guys. "
Kitsune
As one of the original Rogues in this game, I have a rant to plaster here inside this "rant" thread. smile

[rant]
At 153 Stealth, even players with zero perception can see me coming (or going) from a long ways off. To the point where I can't even use the shortbow from stealth. That's pathetic.

More frustratingly, even escaping an enemy (because, let's face it, in a 1-vs-1 battle, the Rogue will rarely win), choosing to slip into Stealth is pointless. At the current speed of stealth, it's impossible to get away. Your foe just needs to keep running straight, and there's absolutely zero chance of slipping away from one side or the other. And that's also partially attributed to the pathetic distance-shortening that Stealth skill gives, even at mid-game levels of it.

As I will always clarify (that other Stealth thread has plenty of it from me): I don't want to see Sealth look like World of Warcraft and other similar games, where you can literally stand behind someone in an open field, and then suddenly burst out of … (what, the dirt?) … and stunlock/kill them. That's just stupid and has no place in PFO, period. I'm sorry, OP, but if that's what you're after, it will never happen in this game. (to clarify, by stupid, I mean that it really makes no sense when you think about it)

However, I'd expect to at least get into shortbow range. I shouldn't have to resort to a Longbow. Longbows are for Fighters. I stab.

Additionally, I'd like to invest in a feat (with high minimum Stealth skill requirements!) that, when fully trained, allows you to move at speeds close-to or equal-to normal walking and running speeds. I mean, to the point where running in stealth is just as fast out of stealth, if you have trained this other feat to max. Perhaps maybe take some sort of stealth penalty while running (which would make total sense), but I honestly don't like that idea. C'mon, give us a bone - don't nerf something that's not even implemented yet. smile

I expect that if a character has 150 Stealth and his opponent has zero perception, the stealther should be able to get within 20m to his target before becoming "shadowy" and visible on the minimap. Likewise, if a stealther had 300 Stealth and the perceptionist had 150 Perception, the same distances should be applicable. Yes, those are my expectations, and I believe they are perfectly reasonable.

But, who am I kidding. Rogues, Stealth, Perception… these are all low priorities to the devs, considering they jumped the gun on PvP, settlements, settlement building, and settlement warefare. Honestly, we should have many other systems online LONG before PvP was even "switched on". Including, but not limited to, friends lists and other community/friends systems (like settlement chat) and other ABSOLUTE BASICS for an MMO game. Oh, and targeting. Targeting is still a joke, when it comes to red-vs-blue and flagging and everything else. That sort of stuff should have been a priority many, many months ago, and Alpha should have gone for many, many more months than it did. Many of these systems that are still missing/bugged-to-hell are not items that need "crowdforging" or player input to develop. Do not kid yourselves.

These things (namely the social systems and flagging, among others) could easily have been developed internally without any of our input. What is a MMO that you cannot play with your friends? This reason alone is why I'm still telling my entire guild to stay away from PFO at this time. They've all paid for Early Enrollment, and honestly, I feel bad for convincing them to pay money for it.

[snip]
Ryan, this short bit is directed at you: I believe you've made a critical mistake in the priorities of the development of this game. Without the use of external communication systems (e.g. Teamspeak/Mumble/Websites), there's no "community" in this game. There's no cohesion. There's no "friends". There's no great way to "hang out" with players in the game from one session to the next. These are fundamentals to an MMO. I'm utterly shocked that these sorts of things did not find a priority over all this stuff that's been implemented in the last several patches (all leading up to complete settlement warfare). Unfortunately, it appears that your team is now stuck in a long-term development cycle to finish implemented the promised features you've been working on for so long, and these critical systems will have to wait until sometime later. Again, I believe that this ended up being a bad idea. But, please forgive my harshness and brevity. You and your team are doing excellent work on the things developed so far.
[/snip]
[/rant]

So yeah, sorry to dump my rant into your thread, OP, but it seemed semi-appropriate. I'm a hardcore fan, and I've dumped at least $1500 and hundreds (thousands?) of hours into this game and projects surrounding it (e.g. Goblinary), and I have no plans to up-and-quit. But there are times, dear OP, where I feel frustrated also.

When it comes to Stealth, the best we can do is ride it out and see how it goes - all while offering our input, of course. If paying for a game in this state is not for you, then sure, by all means, take a break and come back. But if voicing your opinion and playing your part in helping to create this game with Goblinworks is even remotely interesting, then please, stick around. We'd love to have you stay and play. And shoot, depending on your playstyle, ethics, and general attitude, there's a few large organizations around here that would love to have you join (yes, that's a thinly-veiled, shameless recruitment effort).
Giorgio
+1 Kitsune

The lack of social tools for a social game is mind boggling! Priorities of the players is not equal to the priorities of the developers, that much is obvious.
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

PM Giorgo on Paizo Forums
PM Admin George on Commonwealth of the Free Highlands
Hobson Fiffledown
+1 Kitsune
This space for rent.
Jakaal
+1 Kitsune

I've basically gotten into arguments with Ryan when we were still in the Pazio forums about how basic UI features for an MMO should not be MVP or missing altogether. Social functions were high on that list. I've honestly almost completely stopped playing due to these basic functions still not even being on the radar.
Tyncale
Agreed. Stuff like your own character showing up in the Group UI, with the F-keys properly assigned to the several groupmembers are a no brainer and should have been implemented in Alpha. I still scramble and fumble to put a heal on the right person(not a dedicated healer, I am sure others are better at it). As are many other things that cater to the social aspects of the game. Instead we must ready ourselves for our holdings to be razed to the ground when we dont even have Settlement chat yet(I know it's coming). Would have liked /shout to be working before that too (or the old hex-chat).
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Doc
I certainly agree that the social features are neeeded, but it's a complicated problem. Without the game-loop features of holdings and settlements in game, there really is no feature aspect of PFO that makes it standout as unique in the MMO space that it has to offer. Otherwise it would be just a very lackluster PvE game, ya know? You can't really talk up the game when all it has are unpolished aspects that every other MMO has, but if the core features are there you got something to work on. And in the mean time you can try and get by using third-party tools like Mumble/Teamspeak.

Sure it's not ideal, definitely the preferred idea would be to do it all at the same time. But I tend to believe adding core features that make the game stand out as offering something unique was the right choice.
 
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