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Golgotha ... meh

Elsworth Sugarfoot
Dreaden
Doc
No competitive mega guild will come to PFO due to the massive exp and resource advantage we will have over them. Goblin works best bet to attract large groups of players is to advertise heavily and ensure an even playing field by wiping everything for OE.

And yet, I personally believe many (most?) of the veterans and leaders in this game covet and jumped at the proposal of no-wipes from EE to OE so that they could have their massive experience advantage over the OE newcomers. There are a lot of casual players here. If you think about it, this environment and that no-wipes proposal gives these casual players a chance to lord over the masses of competitive players that they normally might have little chance of matching against in other competitive PvP games.

Just my perspective and opinion, but I don't think I'm far off from the reality.
How does that look to new groups of players coming in? Especially after they do a 15 day trials, get smashed by dudes in t2+3(will be t3 By OE) and get told there will be no wipe. New players can be useful in PvP but only if they're mixed in with high exp players and really then they are only applying conditions. By the time of OE, a new group of players won't be effective for a year or so in settlement warfare.

I'm very concerned about this too. We've had a lot of players start and then not sub after 15 days because there's nothing to do while you are waiting to be competitive. There needs to be some other ways these new players can help the alliance dominate besides gathering. We're lost out on a few months of recruits because people didn't want to wait the month to be competitive, and now there's a huge problem because the people that join in the future won't have many tier2 players to catch up to. They'll have to wait a year to get into tier3 to be on the same playing field. Should be a new topic.
Dreamslinger
Rynnik
People are stupid though so I guess they just have to get that stuff in game so we can use those client side tools to tell people to log into teamspeak or whatever.

I frequently use voice coms but there are a lot of times when I log in for a little bit I just want to see what's up without needing to fire up Mumble. Being able to see that something is going in an in-game tool would let me know if it's worth putting on my headphones and connecting to Mumble.
Rynnik
Dreamslinger
Rynnik
People are stupid though so I guess they just have to get that stuff in game so we can use those client side tools to tell people to log into teamspeak or whatever.

I frequently use voice coms but there are a lot of times when I log in for a little bit I just want to see what's up without needing to fire up Mumble. Being able to see that something is going in an in-game tool would let me know if it's worth putting on my headphones and connecting to Mumble.
Oh trust me I know the argument for it all very well.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Doc
How does that look to new groups of players coming in? Especially after they do a 15 day trials, get smashed by dudes in t2+3(will be t3 By OE) and get told there will be no wipe. New players can be useful in PvP but only if they're mixed in with high exp players and really then they are only applying conditions. By the time of OE, a new group of players won't be effective for a year or so in settlement warfare.

I'm not trying to validate why those people don't want a wipe, I'm just stating why I think so many would be opposed to it.

Personally, I would be fine with a wipe for OE, for multiple reasons, however none of my reasons are for the benefit of people showing up late to the game. I've played EVE and have no sympathy for late-comers nor do I feel they are disadvantaged.

But either way, it wouldn't matter. I just don't see any possibility of a wipe happening for OE.

GW just really needs to market and communicate loudly and effectively that late comers can still do stuff and be successful, just like in EVE. If EVE was able to make it work, other games can.
Brighthaven Leader
Heh, felt the same way about you.

There is no mitigation other than leaving the EBA, which no one wants to do, and the conditions for EoX surrender wasn't going to happen, and the conditions for EBA surrender wasn't going to happen. I have been a proponent for peace more than any other leader, other than KP, so stuck between a hard place and rock.

Most of the people that have left Brighthaven/the game (other than 2-3 I can think of) have not gotten on mumble or voice comms. Its hard to have a good conversation with anyone if they aren't willing to get on voice comms, or answer PMs. To be perfectly honest, when you say that I have recruited from somewhere that is not likely to like PFO, I agree, I feel like a lot of the people that has left have been extremely focused on RPing characters and not so much on socializing in voice. Pretty much everyone that I have recruited from Golarion Mumble though has stayed and is still playing, or those that were recruited in Alpha.

I think people that are 1) Willing to test something, and 2) Willing to get on voice comms, are usually the better people to recruit, because they are willing to make a commitment.

Personally, if we could see who is online/offline, had a friends list, PMs via GW forums, and settlement chat the retention rate would be much much higher. You also have to figure a lot of people are coming from Pathfinder, there is some overlap with those people playing MMOs, but not totally. So, its a weird dynamic were in with recruitment sometimes.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Rynnik
lol yah definitely.

The recruiting thing in itself is so interesting on a few different levels and an interesting reflection on the game population over all, of course.

Cheatle for TEO
There is no mitigation other than leaving the EBA, which no one wants to do, and the conditions for EoX surrender wasn't going to happen, and the conditions for EBA surrender wasn't going to happen. I have been a proponent for peace more than any other leader, other than KP, so stuck between a hard place and rock.
Being stuck between a rock and a hard place is being where you are and knowing for the good of the game it is better to encourage people to leave your group rather then the game and yet have that be so counter to your goals. Don't envy you that one at all.

The surrender thing will be interesting to watch - with the continuation of hostilities so convincingly swinging the turnout factor into our favour it will be very interesting to see if that changes, if surrender suddenly starts being more appealing then the alternatives, or it is stuck with right to the bitter crash and burn ending.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Brighthaven Leader
If I wasn't trying to balance everything around keeping this game trucking along, my playstyle would be radically different, as I think most of the leadership knows.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Rynnik
Cheatle for TEO
If I wasn't trying to balance everything around keeping this game trucking along, my playstyle would be radically different, as I think most of the leadership knows.
Agreed and it is safe to say the same of us as well.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Bringslite
So, what I am seeing posted is encouraging. One side has been doing far more than subtle hinting that at least talks are possible and might be productive. The other side is (kind of) showing some concerns about PVP fatigue. I have a feeling that there are elements of BOTH sides are feeling some PVP fatigue even if both side's leadership do not see it.

We have that, but let's digress for a moment. Let's explore why there isn't war going on in other parts of the map.

1. Relatively low population everywhere except EoX and EBA.
2. What pop there is outside of that is made up, more so, of PVP averse individuals and Pro Builder oriented players.
3. Complete lack of a need for war, a want for war, or even anyone that is an enemy.

So, why don't more join a side in the Forever War?

4. Plenty of those (uninvolved) feel that it is a wasteful and pointless conflict, more about Hubris than anything else. (I am not saying that is a wrong motive. I am saying that it isn't as interesting to "outsiders" as it is to those involved)
5. The very fact of the positioning of the settlements makes it difficult to participate. Too far away and too difficult to effectively aid and support any outsiders that join one side or the other.
6. It is dangerous to get involved. But why is that?

7. Any attack on any portion of the EoX is an attack on the entire EoX.
8. Any attack on any portion of the EBA is an attack on the entire EBA.
9. There is at least one exception. I believe that mercs were hired from a non Forever War settlement at least once and were not retaliated against.

With conditions like those, no real desire, and absolutely no need it is clear why there is no war anywhere but between the EoX and the EBA.

So back to the first set of problems: PVP fatigue. Player loss because of how your war is conducted. Unbending Hubris.

War is fun (supposed to be), war is for real gain (not really yet), war is interesting (this one is working).

The way that this war is being conducted is driving off some new players and some older players, such as gatherer ganks and inside settlement killing sprees.

Firstly, I am well aware that this is far more complicated than I can sum up with a few lines of text. I can't even properly represent any one of either EoX's or EBA's takes on this. It is as deep and messy and real to some of them as any real world political tangle might be.

But here is my take, acknowledging that this is simplistic and the conflict started years before there was an MMO GAME to express it with.

A. One side employs and practices PK whether engaged in war or not. This may be lessened now or even non existent now. It wasn't earlier, though. That is a ROOT problem for the other side. It is also partly the way the game is supposed to be played.

B. The other side first attempted to engage in meaningful war. Retaliating by taking Towers (assets). That proved not very useful as a deterrent. That is also partly an expected way to deal with issues.

Neither side's approaches worked well because there isn't a way to WIN through those methods. That is the game's fault, but only because it is under developed and not polished. What we are seeing is: The only way to WIN is to drive one side's players to leave the game or leave their settlement and join another that is outside of the conflict.

That is both BAD and WRONG. You are damaging the health of the game. Not so much for PVP entusiasts, but for those willing to try the game and try PVP. This is toxic PVP.

So, can anything be done? Even a small step? The longest journey…. smile

Why don't you fine fellows start with something simple? Start with an agreement to not attack players inside of settlements unless they willfully enter an enemy settlement?

Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Rynnik
Bringlite despite all the mechanics in THAT game there is a reason the Dotlan curve is the only real way measure winning in EVE online SovWar.

Bringslite
B. The other side first attempted to engage in meaningful war. Retaliating by taking Towers (assets). That proved not very useful as a deterrent. That is also partly an expected way to deal with issues.
Lets no be too altruistic here please. Engaging in 'meaningful' asset war was motivated to some degree by being the most winnable type of engagement for the biggest less skilled force. Nothing wrong with that but it isn't truthful to pin it all on the side of some 'positive gameplay' bullcrap or I am pretty sure positive gameplay would have weighed in a lot higher in other places. Winnable mattered.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
 
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