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Open letter to GW

Brighthaven Leader
The thing is most people considered the towers to still be theirs. Brighthaven accidentally took a hex from one group though, and were in the process of paying them for that.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Phyllain
lol one hex accidentally. *cough three hexes had to be killed to keep them from the rest cough*
Brighthaven Leader
I am not even talking about EL, Phyllain.

We took hexes there, because towers were missing, you know the same towers you sliced a path through the SE just killing off. Tried to get in contact with EL about what was going on, but no one was around.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Doc
It wasn't "raping" (hate the use of that word in this context, btw) for groups to take down as many of the escalations as possible. That's exactly what I thought would happen. Any time a valuable resource is available, people will maximize the rate they extract it. The fact that ANY of the escalations were still running on Monday morning (and they were, I went and looked myself) surprised me, tbh.

Here is a sequence of events that seems to occur often:

  1. An organized group of competitive PVP-oriented players do some stuff in game, that is legitimate and within the bounds of accepted gameplay rules set out by Goblin Works - which ultimately leads to another group of players losing something.
  2. The losing players complain publicly, sometimes saying they quit the game, and other prominent people come in and point fingers at how the PVP'ers are killing the game and are mean.
  3. Much back and forth debate ensues, usually devolving into a vitriolic mess.
  4. Some time later when the thread is mostly wound down and over, and when much beseeching for clarity is asked for, Goblin Works may come in and say all had transpired basically according to their grand design.

Wouldn't it be nice to skip steps 2 and 3? Can Goblin Works share the message about the PvP aspects of the game more often and more loudly so it is clear that competition between groups is expected and encouraged?

If Goblin Works isn't clear and loud about what they're expecting (and trying to guide towards) to see happen, and some player groups deviate towards a path of play that is sub-optimal for those conditions, these kinds of public toxic melt downs will never dwindle.
Thod-Theodum
Doc
Here is a sequence of events that seems to occur often:

  1. An organized group of competitive PVP-oriented players do some stuff in game, that is legitimate and within the bounds of accepted gameplay rules set out by Goblin Works - which ultimately leads to another group of players losing something.
  2. The losing players complain publicly, sometimes saying they quit the game, and other prominent people come in and point fingers at how the PVP'ers are killing the game and are mean.
  3. Much back and forth debate ensues, usually devolving into a vitriolic mess.
  4. Some time later when the thread is mostly wound down and over, and when much beseeching for clarity is asked for, Goblin Works may come in and say all had transpired basically according to their grand design.

Wouldn't it be nice to skip steps 2 and 3? Can Goblin Works share the message about the PvP aspects of the game more often and more loudly so it is clear that competition between groups is expected and encouraged?

If Goblin Works isn't clear and loud about what they're expecting (and trying to guide towards) to see happen, and some player groups deviate towards a path of play that is sub-optimal for those conditions, these kinds of public toxic melt downs will never dwindle.

Doc

Great write-up. Just let me add one part. This game is in development. Sometimes it isn't the player group that chose a path that is sub-optimal - sometimes it is GW that rolls out sub-optimal implementations.

There always will be a problem when GW advertises more meaningful PvP but their implementation only allows more meaningless PvP.

Losing in PvP because you made the wrong choices is bearable. Losing in PvP because of a bad implementation feels like you got cheated.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Daeglin
Thod-Theodum
There always will be a problem when GW advertises more meaningful PvP but their implementation only allows more meaningless PvP.

A part is that players define "meaningless" differently, and none of them may actually match up with Goblinworks definition. Echo chambers certainly come into play, with internal group discussions leading to the conviction that their definition is what is meant for the game despite blog entries and game design to the contrary.
Good… Bad… I'm the guy with the bow.
Drogon
I honestly was led to believe through GW advertising that these escalations we're going to be "hard" to take down… We were told that they were above the mordant spire level, I assumed this meant it would take 1-2 days to take down each hex and that for all ~140 towers it would take the server population the whole month to get them all down, plenty of time for settlements to do "theirs" while others did their own…. I was completely suprised to find that they could be wiped out within 30-45 minutes each…. Add the super phat lootz….. Of course they will be gone within a few days…. I personally don't see any problem with ANY group finding and killing any that they find since it was advertised before hand that they belonged to Nhur not any given settlement…. I just thought it would take more time to do so everyone would have a shot at completing the ones close by them and getting holdings down in the hexes they wanted to "claim".

That being said…. I like the format as it is, it allows us to PVP/PVE at the same time and fight/rush to find and kill them before others can…. We had some cooperation with other groups as well which also leads to creating relations for the future which is an aspect I will always promote….
HpoD - "I have, however, sat and watched as others took things more personally (on both sides) and became zealots, charging forward on a shining white horse into a pile of shit. Forum Warriors at their peak, striding the battlefield knee deep in the bloody, broken arguments of their adversaries before the burning village of their credibility….Chill guys. "
Thod-Theodum
@Daeglin
I likely shouldn't paint meaningful and meaningless as black and white. There are many shades of grey in-between and perception will also differ.
This is always the danger of simplification. I hope my post isn't necessarily seen as absolute. But we had enough examples when the players didn't use the sand as expected by GW. Just look at the NAP and the core 6 protections.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Doc
A part is that players define "meaningless" differently, and none of them may actually match up with Goblinworks definition.

This, a thousand times.

I truly believe the majority of angst within the community towards each other is derived from differing interpretations of how the game should work and/or be played.

Either way the pendulum swings you're going to lose a segment of the existing playerbase, and *potentially* gain more of the other from outside people not having joined yet. So, we might as well just pick one and run with it. Trying to make both of these groups happy is in my opinion, never going to work. Not without backing off the open-world PvP component.

Goblin Works probably needs to loudly, clearly, and thoroughly explain what type of game it is, and everybody needs to take that to heart. And new players or trial players need to have that drilled into their head from the beginning.

Just look at the NAP and the core 6 protections.

I personally believe that NAP stuff was detrimental to the game, and set the stage for stuff that still is. That is why I opposed it so much and tried to thwart it. But that's just my opinion.
The Eternal Balance
You are a Troll
We really love Pathfinder RPG. We really wanted to love PFO. But, as some said way back when there was strife during the first Land-Rush - the hard-core MMOers will come and make the game what they want of it, finding and exploiting every loophole, and the River Kingdoms will be theirs. We will mourn its loss (to us) as we go back to our dice and books and fun.

The game is already moving steadily toward what the harder-core MMOers & PVPers want, which means steadily away from what TTers are looking for/willing to adjust to. Having Golgatha race around the map taking any Nhur escalation they felt like, and polishing them off one after another in 30 minutes or so, with a hug bunch of ardent PVPers left just about everyone (except EBA I imagine) feeling helpless. A fun server wide event turned into the bully making what they wanted of the game, again. This may be Ryan's vision, but I don't think it is everyone else's in GW or even the majority of people on the server.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
 
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