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Open letter – 24/7 availability, game balance and PvP

Edam
Midnight
The problem with leader status is the game currently makes it impossible to demote a company leader. You have to trust them enough that you trust they'll demote themselves if you ask them to.

So, if I get a spy into the highest reaches of a settlement owning company, not only can I do mischief with it, but the original leaders CAN NEVER STOP MY MISCHIEF, EVER AGAIN. If that company has 30 holdings and 60 outposts and thousands of unused influence, it is mine to do with as I please, not in just one night of chaos before they catch on, but for as long as the game exists.

They can also empty and company or secure vault they like whenever there are contents. If they are in the main settlement company they can empty settlement secure as well.

However surely the thing to do would be stack the company with alts to retain influence, kick everyone you can and leave settlement.
Decius
Yes. You have to trust people that you assign maximum trust powers to.
Edam
I would also point out that having the ability to demote/kick leaders will make the problem worse.

The rogue leader can then kick all the other leaders and run off to Dagedai or Deadman's Glen or somewhere with the whole company.
Elsworth Sugarfoot
I hadn't brought it up with Phy, it just occurred to me the other day that someone should help him with this shit.
I was not aware that was a thing. My reign of terror was short lived.
http://i.imgur.com/DYjsQoG.jpg

But yea, if you could set permission for each command instead of granting them access to everything that would help. Maybe someone could only move the pvp window, or only set training, not have complete access to the settlement secure vault and ability to kick companies etc.
Thod-Theodum
Grim Onyxheart
However, talking about how because you were emotionally tied to something, you felt ownership is not a valid claim.

Grim

You miss several points I made
a) Why did both Phyllain and Cheatle tried to contact me if I had no claim at all
b) I didn't complain. I was gutted because of bad timing and misjudgement. I was gutted because I knew that my emotional claim was just non-enforcible after the act
c) I actually thanked Phyllain how he handled it
d) I did speak in general terms and the example even referred more to the group that left because they were too emotionally tied to it to be unable to take a step back

And you missed the most important one

This whole game is based on emotional claims and groups trying turn emotional claims into game claims. And PvP and strife results because emotional claims from A are not seen as valid by B.
If the in-game claim is the only ever valid one then you rob the game off it's meaning and it just becomes the stronger, bigger just takes it all. The game would degenerate into a game of just numbers and efficiencies. The whole game would be so much less of what it hopefully could become.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Thod-Theodum
@Dreaden
I never replied to your comment about 24/7 availability. There is a need for certain functions in a settlement to be 24/7 or as close as possible

a) Recruitment
b) Reply to political happenings and issues
c) Reply to a declaration of feud (or maybe war) in the future
d) Access to settlement secure vault
e) Availability of other settlement members to play together
f) Availability to be trained / getting help
g) Coordination for goods / resources needed

None of these mean 24/7 availability for a given player. Ideally these jobs are shared as widely as possible. And once they are covered any other player can log in casually as and when he likes. But the enjoyment of the casual player, the player with no responsibilities will be diminished if a settlement is unable to provide the cover.
I say 24/7 - well - maybe enough is to have it covered at peak times. But as soon as you have 2 time zones (US/EU) you double the peak times. Add in Oceanic players and you are close to 24/7.
I lost players - not because I demanded 24/7 availability but because EL couldn't provide our services 24/7 to them.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Grim Onyxheart
Thod-Theodum
Grim Onyxheart
However, talking about how because you were emotionally tied to something, you felt ownership is not a valid claim.

Grim

You miss several points I made
a) Why did both Phyllain and Cheatle tried to contact me if I had no claim at all
b) I didn't complain. I was gutted because of bad timing and misjudgement. I was gutted because I knew that my emotional claim was just non-enforcible after the act
c) I actually thanked Phyllain how he handled it
d) I did speak in general terms and the example even referred more to the group that left because they were too emotionally tied to it to be unable to take a step back

And you missed the most important one

This whole game is based on emotional claims and groups trying turn emotional claims into game claims. And PvP and strife results because emotional claims from A are not seen as valid by B.
If the in-game claim is the only ever valid one then you rob the game off it's meaning and it just becomes the stronger, bigger just takes it all. The game would degenerate into a game of just numbers and efficiencies. The whole game would be so much less of what it hopefully could become.
Well, this may make me sound like the bad guy to you, but I believe it is the truth….

A) They were being polite, knowing that you did feel attached to those towers and would likely want to do them yourselves, but you had not actually made an agreement one way or the other. As far as I knew, the EoX had no plans of doing the towers out of respect for EL until the EBA came in, then we worked to deney resources to our enemies. That is why the EoX is widely considered to have come out of this on the moral highground, because we were more considerate to you and the error you made in not staking your claim to those escalation hexes.

B) Yes, you were denied those escalations because you failed to act and make agreements with the player groups most likely to do them in a situation where there was no agreement. This is a great learning opportunity for you, and again I feel the need to say I'm not trying to be antagonistic by saying this as things are easily misconstrued over text on the internet. Your diplomatic skills are some of the best in the game, and you got blindsided by this. Now the next time, you'll be ready.

C) I'm glad you recognized Phy for taking the high road, thank you.

D) I'm glad you recognized that in others, I think you are failing in a way to recognize it in yourself, even though in this situation you are far from as frustrated as those players that quit were.

Allow me to wax philosophical for a moment. Everything in life, including our possessions, family and even our bodies are not guaranteed to always be ours or work the way we want to. Getting attached to any possession or self concept emotionally is setting yourself up for disappointment later in life, and actively letting go of these things has been a spiritual practice since the dawn of time. Most certainly an escalation hex in PFO is not a permanent structure, and so is not worthy of being emotionally attached to. I'm sorry if that sounds like a bunch of crap, feel free to ignore, contemplate or look deeper as you wish.

A sandbox is in many ways supposed to bring the rules of real world survival, business and social settings into a game simulation for fun. In a general sense, mankind used to fight and kill and disagree on a massive level compared to today. Over the centuries we have progressively become less and less violent overall, falling back on diplomacy and law to solve our problems instead of a bloody feud, duels or assassinations. Where I learned this from is a book called "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined", which I highly recommend. To summarize in my words what I learned from the book is that people became less violent and more cooperative when they realized that the violence caused more problems than it created and that diplomacy, compromise and law settled things much, much more amicably overall. The people who were caught up in possessive, racial and nationalistic emotions were the people who tried to keep their fellows in a cycle of violence and strife that would never end until somebody stepped outside of it and looked for a better way. I know I've made a really convoluted point and I hope you're able to understand what I'm trying to convey when I say that your emotional ties to things in-game are crap, they will only give you misery down the line and they could you embroiled in conflicts that are very hard to get out of. Instead, rely on your diplomatic, logical side to get things done when dealing with other settlements. There's no need to be cynical about it, but if you would have logically assumed that something like this would have happened, then you could have made efforts to make it not happen diplomatically.

Again, sorry if this seems like a bunch of malarkey, but I'm trying to make a nuanced point, and those aren't always easy to get across. I love what EL is and has worked to become and I'd love to see you prosper and grow.
~Part of the Empire of Xeilias, settlement of Golgotha, company of House Winterfield~
============= "Through Strength of Arms, We bring Peace." ============
—————————————————- www.xeilias.com ————————————————
coach
this is THE most friendly MMO towards the casual player that i have EVER played

it is a casual player's dream to log on after a few days away and not be behind in maximum level potential attainment due to XP accrued over time not achievements

so i have to disagree with your below quote, although i do sympathize with a lot of your OP

Casual players feel they can’t keep up.
coach
Baron Malthius
coach
this is THE most friendly MMO towards the casual player that i have EVER played

it is a casual player's dream to log on after a few days away and not be behind in maximum level potential attainment due to XP accrued over time not achievements

so i have to disagree with your below quote, although i do sympathize with a lot of your OP

Casual players feel they can’t keep up.

I agree for the most part, this game is more casual than most MMOs, but there is one caveat (which is also the case in other MMOs):

The determining factor in all of this is the ability (and I suppose willingness too) of a given company or settlement to ensure that those who wish to play the game in a more casual manner will be able to do so in game. With the wide range of inter-dependencies between PvE, crafting, and PvP as well as the dependencies within each of those, this is all possible only if those who are propping this up are able to properly cover all these required areas in some way. If those people lose the ability to keep up, so too will the casual players be unable to keep up either unless another steps forward.

Now of course, management and leadership are always a lot more involved, so to an extent this is to be expected. Where that becomes an issue is in a game like this where you have such a low population that the loss of one member could be more devastating than it may be in other games. It is a lot harder to call upon newer players to step forward at the moment because the population is lower than it needs to be for right now. I think it could grow eventually to where it needs to be, but until that point, it's a lot harder to draw from other resources that you don't have and burnout is a lot easier in a situation like that than perhaps another more established MMO.
Thod-Theodum
@Grim

Well said. I think the key is to be able to be emotional connected to enjoy the game - but to let lose when the emotional connection becomes a deterrent to the enjoyment.

I don't want to put words in your mouth but I was mainly writing about the first part as something necessary for the game while you (and I guess Ryan) focussed on the second part.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
 
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