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The new support system Lee mentioned, some thoughts

Rynnik
Community needs to decide what it wants imo.

It is almost like people are taking the piss when it comes to this debate. The design goals of allowing small settlements to flourish is in direct opposition to the design goal of pressuring people to build and be attached to something tangible that can be taken away. So which is more important?

I personally think the small settlement pressure is the more valid concern right now because I don't believe the organization exists in game that would build nothing and train elsewhere with level 20 support and therefore have nothing to lose on full out attack, every group I know has strong builder urges and plans looking forward to building up their own settlements. While I understand the urge to protect against the bogey man, the game reality is that small settlements sorta scraping by is a thing that we are all well aware of. Probably the 'winning' design pressure in my opinion.

In that context I think the 20 support decision was the right decision.

Now the proposed dura mechanic is a terribly clever compromise in my opinion that actually tackles a bit of the 'pressure to build' without crippling small settlements. Character power stays the same unlike with previously discussed support. Small settlement characters have just as much power to do high end pve and fight other players and only on death does the actual 'punishment' occur. Therefore in the vast majority of situations this isn't actually coming into effect. Politically savy dodging getting blobbed, well prepared fighting groups won't even notice that this is in place.

Economics are a great thing for a small settlement to be successful at that doesn't require PvP, PvE or any particular single in game activity. Hard farming monster killing settlements, a small political extortionist (could that be a thing?), the small mercenary settlement (hope that works out Duffy for the good of the game), the PFO Jita 4-4 AH settlement, are all examples of small settlement concepts that could literally 'buy their way' past concern about this dura loss mechanic. By 'punishing' the small settlement on the economic end of the spectrum you give them the greatest chance of fully feasible existence that they can have with the maximum flexibility to achieve it.

Very clever.

I think it could work and I think people should really strongly consider giving it a chance too.

(Also I know this will fall on deaf ears and it is just crazy ol' Rynnik yelling about nothing again, "But holy hell THINK about the economy people!!! Dialing up the sinks IS. A. GOOD. FUCKING. THING.)
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Memory-High Priest of Desna
@Rynnik

The only question I think you didn't address as it pertains to small settlements is:

How does this affect recruitment for those settlements? If i'm a 1 week old new player, and i'm offered a spot in settlement A, who has no buildings to support my durability, because they're a Cleric/Fighter settlement and I want to be a wizard, and i'm offered a position in Settlement B, who has +5 buildings for all classes, am I going to join the small scrappy start-up project, or the big Wal-mart settlement that's going to reduce my durability costs by 80%?

With this in mind, is it feasible to expect small settlements to be able to recruit reliably?
Adventure Time with the High Priest of Desna, begins Tuesday 08/18 at 6:00pm EST (10:00 server time) at the Thornkeep Auction house. All new players welcome!

Official titles and Nicknames:
Spherewalker of Indor-Mardil, High Priest of Desna, Dreaden-appointed Forum Troll Extraordinaire, The Southern Speedster, Slinger of Stars, Newbie-Bear, Gutter of Golgothans, King of Kiters, Johnny Ustalavian-Seed, and Peaches.
Stilachio Thrax
This just a horrible idea. Why don't you just come out and say you don't want small settlements in game so the people who prefer something small and don't want to be in EBA or Golgotha can just cut their losses and head elsewhere.

A much preferable alternative for me would be to make the max durability for a given piece of gear be based off of the skill of the crafter and the level of the crafting facility. A lvl 20 crafter working at a lvl 20 facility could produce a 30 durability item. That same item made at a lvl 10 facility by a lvl 8 crafter may only have 14 max durability. That would allow people who invest totally into crafting and settlements that put resources into crafting facilities to make the best items, and those that don't still can make serviceable items but they don't last as long.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Memory-High Priest of Desna
@Stilachio

See above. that was suggested by Caldeathe in almost that exact same format. After some discussion, it seems that it would not work so well. The reasons were explained in detail.
Adventure Time with the High Priest of Desna, begins Tuesday 08/18 at 6:00pm EST (10:00 server time) at the Thornkeep Auction house. All new players welcome!

Official titles and Nicknames:
Spherewalker of Indor-Mardil, High Priest of Desna, Dreaden-appointed Forum Troll Extraordinaire, The Southern Speedster, Slinger of Stars, Newbie-Bear, Gutter of Golgothans, King of Kiters, Johnny Ustalavian-Seed, and Peaches.
Rynnik
Memory
@Rynnik

The only question I think you didn't address as it pertains to small settlements is:

How does this affect recruitment for those settlements? If i'm a 1 week old new player, and i'm offered a spot in settlement A, who has no buildings to support my durability, because they're a Cleric/Fighter settlement and I want to be a wizard, and i'm offered a position in Settlement B, who has +5 buildings for all classes, am I going to join the small scrappy start-up project, or the big Wal-mart settlement that's going to reduce my durability costs by 80%?

With this in mind, is it feasible to expect small settlements to be able to recruit reliably?
Same logic for the 20 support thing. Same logic for any system that pressures a group to actually build up their own stuff that can be tangibly attacked.

Psychologically what appeals can be leveraged for a new player to decide to go anywhere other then the blob at any time?

They exist. In fact there are player types that gravitate to small settlements BECAUSE they are small.

I am not going to do their work for them but:

"Hey you will take more dura loss in our settlement but we are an elite mercenary force hired by those other plebs to do their PvP work for them. Our small group tactics and excellent communication and shot calling mean you will die less then those others, and our exorbitant gold per hour rates mean you will be able to buy the best gear anywhere at any time anyways."

"Come play with the merchant guild of golarian! We literally control the busiest +5 AH in the game and no one group dares to attack us for fear of being cut off of our neutral market. We manipulate the entire financial system and so much gear and so many items will pass through us skimming what you need from it won't be a problem. Welcome to wealth."

"We are the best monster hunters in PFO. We seek and achieve server first on every new escalation boss introduced. Our 6 person groups have the exact tactics for every mob type memorized and will teach you to fight everything, everywhere without dying. Get ready to sell the best loot in the game to the hordes in the big nameless cities."

blah blah blah IDK. I don't think is that hard really but I guess I am not doing it so *shrug*.

Stilachio Thrax
This just a horrible idea. Why don't you just come out and say you don't want small settlements in game so the people who prefer something small and don't want to be in EBA or Golgotha can just cut their losses and head elsewhere.
Well there are certain vocal groups that are concerned that EoX might decide to just ignore holdings and outposts and actually constructing any buildings in Golgotha and just live in the SE murdering forever and training in Phaeros. Do you think this will happen? No, I don't think so either, but there are people who believe that concern outweighs SOME sort mechanic that no matter what is going to suck for small settlements.

Something needs to be done.

The dura thing seems quit elegant actually as a potential part of the solution.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Ragnar
The problem, to me, Rynnik, is that it really only ups the sink on those communities already struggling with other issues. If you are one of the few powerhouse settlements that can afford top notch buildings for combat and an equally strong crafting alliance settlement, you have no negative impact by this change, actually you craft gear far more quickly than now. But if you are a new settlement struggling to get established, there is really no viable way to contend and it isn't improved economics, it is simply making it easy for a PvP oriented group to snuff out a new settlement.

I can see the recruitment adds now. "Join our mega-settlement. We enjoy the pinnacle of settlement technology. Why join that new settlement that has 7x times the gear loss and takes 6x as long to craft things?". Add to that the fact that those settlements will have the numbers to effectively camp a small settlement just starting out, it will be easy to crush the new folks and keep them from ever getting anywhere and drive them from the game. You will end up with a couple of mega-settlements/alliances and nothing more.

As a crafter, I love the idea of gear churn as it makes my desired role better. I need a market for my goods in order to sell them. However, I don't see how that market will benefit if the only folks that have increased needs of my goods are struggling to keep their settlement afloat, protect their holdings and are so resource strapped they are probably spending all their spare coin on trade goods to maintain their infrastructure since protecting their holdings isn't viable with the rate of gear replacement required. This just hands the powerful few settlements a massive power boost that trivializes the risk of death for them while making the risk of death for a small town a back breaking ordeal.

Just my thoughts. I don't have the experience with the game most of you do. I also can't really understand exactly where the developers are trying to take the game with this change. Perhaps I just need a bit more information or understanding.
Rynnik
Ragnar
The problem, to me, Rynnik, is that it really only ups the sink on those communities already struggling with other issues. If you are one of the few powerhouse settlements that can afford top notch buildings for combat and an equally strong crafting alliance settlement, you have no negative impact by this change, actually you craft gear far more quickly than now. But if you are a new settlement struggling to get established, there is really no viable way to contend and it isn't improved economics, it is simply making it easy for a PvP oriented group to snuff out a new settlement.

I can see the recruitment adds now. "Join our mega-settlement. We enjoy the pinnacle of settlement technology. Why join that new settlement that has 7x times the gear loss and takes 6x as long to craft things?". Add to that the fact that those settlements will have the numbers to effectively camp a small settlement just starting out, it will be easy to crush the new folks and keep them from ever getting anywhere and drive them from the game. You will end up with a couple of mega-settlements/alliances and nothing more.

As a crafter, I love the idea of gear churn as it makes my desired role better. I need a market for my goods in order to sell them. However, I don't see how that market will benefit if the only folks that have increased needs of my goods are struggling to keep their settlement afloat, protect their holdings and are so resource strapped they are probably spending all their spare coin on trade goods to maintain their infrastructure since protecting their holdings isn't viable with the rate of gear replacement required. This just hands the powerful few settlements a massive power boost that trivializes the risk of death for them while making the risk of death for a small town a back breaking ordeal.

Just my thoughts. I don't have the experience with the game most of you do. I also can't really understand exactly where the developers are trying to take the game with this change. Perhaps I just need a bit more information or understanding.
Best as I can understand it this is the concern: (quoting myself from just the post above)

Rynnik
Well there are certain vocal groups that are concerned that EoX might decide to just ignore holdings and outposts and actually constructing any buildings in Golgotha and just live in the SE murdering forever and training in Phaeros. Do you think this will happen? No, I don't think so either, but there are people who believe that concern outweighs SOME sort mechanic that no matter what is going to suck for small settlements.

Something needs to be done.

The dura thing seems quit elegant actually as a potential part of the solution.
There is a community concern about a rather (imo) improbable situation as outlined above. The solution to that pressure NO MATTER WHAT is going to suck for small settlements. I think this one sucks a lot less then most of what I have seen proposed.

Convince the community and developers that there is no need at all to combat a settlement bogey man and you might push the rope far enough to stop a new mechanic that makes life a bit worse for the little guy.

Personally I think it is coming regardless and as far as it goes this is a pretty decent approach to take on it.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Stilachio Thrax
@Memory

I think you have a valid point on making sure the Holding/Settlement game can't be bypassed, but for me, that isn't a big enough reason to stick with what GW is proposing. The Holding/Settlement game means very little if any of my non-cleric/non-fighter fellow citizens have to ditch the settlement they *want* to be in because they are at a severe disadvantage if they don't.

I really hope someone got the brownies mixed up and accidentally brought in the "enhanced" brownies.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Ragnar
I, personally, am not concerned with PvP groups. My issues are that as a crafter, in this case an armorsmith, the ability to help supply my alliance and still have anything left to market will be sorely tested by this change. In PvP, regardless of skill level, folks die. Even the best PvP players on the server have died. I have heard sometimes on a clash type day up to 6-10 deaths isn't uncommon. Well, for a new settlement, that is 2 or 3 sets of armor that takes a week or so each to craft. For a large settlement, that is maybe half a piece of armor that takes less than a day to make.

How can I compete with other merchants if I choose a smaller community where my crafting time is say 3 times theirs and the loss of my alliance combatants requires 3 times more of my produced goods? I really won't have the goods to market as effectively. Since I can't keep my AH stocked as the goods are needed for alliance replacements, the AH of the larger towns will be far more attractive to folks as the options and quantities will be far greater there. There is essentially no reason to be a crafter in the less settlement unless you just like struggling as an underdog. Financially, as a merchant, it is far better to be a part of the large settlement and just sell your goods in the smaller AHs instead. You need to give less to support the alliance and you craft far more quickly allowing for much greater output.

I just see it, from a numbers aspect, as a further burden on trying to grow smaller communities which is already an uphill battle.

But, we will see how it works. Either way, I will stay around and keep enjoying the game. I just hope this doesn't end up making it a 'red vs blue' deal where you end up joining one alliance or the other in the very large PvP battle arena.
Memory-High Priest of Desna
Rynnik
The dura thing seems quit elegant actually as a potential part of the solution.

yea, Rynnik, I'm actually with you on that. I do believe it's the best solution that's out there now, I just think there are considerations that are staring us in the face that can be fixed by tweaking the idea/adding to it before it's implemented. It's elegant. it could be more elegant.

My first suggestion was to perhaps reduce crafting times by a smidge, or .875 of a smidge. This addresses Ragnar's concerns on some level, and allows crafters to better keep up with the faster churn.

Another general tweak that seems reasonable to me is to create some circumstance in which it is easier/faster for settlements that specialize to upgrade their buildings. If you build a Cleric-only Settlement, so that your Clerics can be competitive durability-wise with larger settlements, perhaps you should be able to do that at reduced costs/greater speeds, or at least be able to maintain it at reduced costs. This allows the little guy put together a selling point that doesn't force them to admit that recruits will have to suffer awful gear breakage. "Are you a Cleric? then you belong with us!"

There could be more suggestions, but you get the idea. The core idea is good, and i think it solves a lot of problems. there's just probably some Pork we can attach to the bill to make the little guy happier.
Adventure Time with the High Priest of Desna, begins Tuesday 08/18 at 6:00pm EST (10:00 server time) at the Thornkeep Auction house. All new players welcome!

Official titles and Nicknames:
Spherewalker of Indor-Mardil, High Priest of Desna, Dreaden-appointed Forum Troll Extraordinaire, The Southern Speedster, Slinger of Stars, Newbie-Bear, Gutter of Golgothans, King of Kiters, Johnny Ustalavian-Seed, and Peaches.
 
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