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Adding coin and raw material sinks

Thod-Theodum
Rynnik seems to be on a crusade to add more sinks into the game. In most real world economies you tax the rich more then you tax the poor. So I had some thoughts about alternative sinks that actually would remove a lot of raw materials, coin and even durability from this game.

Coin sink:
The bank of Abadar isn't free. They guarantee you can take out money all over the River Kingdom. They try to lure you in to keep their money with them. But don't be fooled. They have to pay all the guards - and they wouldn't be the bank of Abadar if they make no profit.

Keeping money with the bank of Abadar costs a weekly 5% for any deposit above 1 gp. This can be done together with the upkeep.

Actually this would be a way to add + levels to banks as a bank +5 in your company settlement might charge less as a bank +0. Trying to avoid it by taking out all money when payday comes up? Finally a really juicy target for a bandit. And yes - this would mean that the bank would NOT be a good place to log out.

Raw material sink:
Rats and bad weather. The bank happily stores all of you 1257 tansy leaves - but you can't blame them that they can't keep rats, mold or goblins out of their storage. A small loss just happens. 1% of items stored (rounded) deteriorates on a weekly basis and becomes victim of rats, mold and goblins.

So building up 5 digit stacks of materials isn't free. A large stockpile for war comes at a cost as some of it has to be replaced on a regular basis.

Nothing lasts forever:
You have fought another 329 goblins, killed 51 wolfs and avoided 17 fire elementals. Do you really think you armour and your sword didn't even get a single scratch from all this fighting? Items worn degrade by 1/20th for every 5 hours logged in.

I hear stories of players playing for weeks multiple hours a day and not dying. If we want churn then these players have to be included in the churn as well. Dying just hastens it - but nothing lasts forever. You might even be able to add some alchemist items - oils / potions / salves for T1, T2, T3 that you can use when you log in and that prevent any detrimental effects from usage for x hours. In this case you expensive armour/weapon made from coal/iron/lodestone stays as it is but hyssop oil and other useless stuff might get used up.

I could add why I came up with this, benefits, general thoughts, loopholes - but I thought best I just place it here as it is. I'm especially interested for feedback from Rynnik. You want more sinks - here are some that I would vote for.

Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Rynnik
Passive unavoidable sinks have been tried in other games and traditionally are very unpopular.

Encouraging keeping 99s per alt is pretty meh gaming. Converting stacks to the highest possible density doesn't add much either. Item degradation by time played means people are either active or logged out. Overall bad for the game if there is a massive motivation not to loiter.

Right now I would prefer that over nothing because I think not upping up sinks would be detrimental to the game but these aren't good ones imo.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Drogon
@rynnik

I would like to hear some of your ideas for these sinks and faucets…I assume you posted some previously here on the forums? If so can you post a link? Do you have any new ideas that you haven't posted?
HpoD - "I have, however, sat and watched as others took things more personally (on both sides) and became zealots, charging forward on a shining white horse into a pile of shit. Forum Warriors at their peak, striding the battlefield knee deep in the bloody, broken arguments of their adversaries before the burning village of their credibility….Chill guys. "
Yrme
Thod, I think the first two proposals are too easy to bypass - materials and coin can be kept on alts, just for starters.

I think the damage over time on gear sounds good. Yes, I might log off if I'm not actively doing something for the next hour (which might be good practice anyway), or I might park my armor while I'm doing some recordkeeping in game or just participating in chat (again, maybe good practice). Having to replace my gear every 100 hours in game without a death doesn't sound particularly onerous. In the absence of the threading mechanics, it might encourage more people to use less-than-max gear for routine activities.
At some point, crowdforging suggestions seem to be like fan fiction. Some good, some bad, some repetitious and predictable. But maybe there are some gems out there.
Thorgrim Foegrinder
Some ideas for things that you could add coin sinks to:
  1. Feuds
  2. Holdings
  3. Taverns (simulate buying food or drinks while there)
    • Cost per tick of power regen, might increase the use of camps outside settlements
    • Short duration (30 or 60 minute) gathering buff
    • Other short duration buffs like carrying capacity or even HP

I'm just brainstorming here - many of these are probably not that great of an idea.
[Sylva] is the premier Nature based settlement in Pathfinder Online. We're a family that has come together through the game, and we're one of the most active settlements currently. We have a solid roleplaying foundation and are a home to those who both love and hate PvP.

[The Seventh Veil] is a meta-game group with members in several different settlements. We've created many guides and spreadsheets for the game that are referenced by hundreds of players on a daily basis and we maintain multiple websites like [Goblinary.com], [The Storehouse], and [The Unofficial PFO Atlas] to make information more readily available. The Seventh Veil promotes positive game play at all times.
Rynnik
Drogon
@rynnik

I would like to hear some of your ideas for these sinks and faucets…I assume you posted some previously here on the forums? If so can you post a link? Do you have any new ideas that you haven't posted?

Crafting/refining coin cost. Pay the locked up gnomes!

Settlement or company level coin/resource sinks - probably holding and building upkeep sort of things. The higher level the sink is the better as it promotes more flexibility in how it is paid providing an additional social pressure and thing to be jointly worked around by player organizations. Get together for a PvE evening and donate the results. Ask for donations. Implement tax. Etc. Promotes both sinks and activities. Scale higher to be bigger as a way to make the 'big guys' pay more.

Crafting critical fail as resource sink. More market coin sinks. NPC to learn expendables so they have a training cost as well. Player trade fee.

IDK. Some or all. Mix and match. Lots of other possibilities exist as well including Thod's suggestions.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Thod-Theodum
Rynnik
Passive unavoidable sinks have been tried in other games and traditionally are very unpopular.

Oh I agree - unavoidable sinks are unpopular. We already have a passive unavoidable sink - training cost for XP. Last time you wanted to up that one if I remember. Training is a cost that is the same for everyone. This would add a higher cost for the rich. The advantage over higher training cost (or lesser drops) is that it also deals with distribution by having the rich pay more and the poor pay less (or even nothing).

Rynnik
Encouraging keeping 99s per alt is pretty meh gaming. Converting stacks to the highest possible density doesn't add much either.

You have to add something that prevents that you come back after 2 month of RL and find everything gone. Any system will be gamed. But how many alts will you need for 10K tansy leaves?

Rynnik
Item degradation by time played means people are either active or logged out. Overall bad for the game if there is a massive motivation not to loiter.

Agreed - so instead of time played - what about 25K of damage (number debatable) will suffer 1/20th of a deterioration. Haven't worked out yet what the number truly needs to be. So you can loiter around for hours gathering, chatting - but if you fight then you will slowly but surely lose your gear. Only that not only death will destroy it.

Rynnik
Right now I would prefer that over nothing because I think not upping up sinks would be detrimental to the game but these aren't good ones imo.

I hope I improved at least one of them thanks to your feedback.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Thod-Theodum
Yrme
Thod, I think the first two proposals are too easy to bypass - materials and coin can be kept on alts, just for starters.

According to my last numbers https://www.goblinworks.com/forum/topic/3194/?page=1 Golgotha could park up to 257 gp and Brighthaven 373 gp. That assumes that you give every single member a gold piece and have it perfectly distributed. Assume a generous 50% efficiency in parking coins. This means Golgotha could have 130 gp and Brighthaven 185 gp before taxes are paid (and EL 56 gp).
I don't see a problem with too much coin if any of these settlements has less coin. And if they have more then they can't avoid it - only slightly minimize it.

The materials is a different issue. That is the idea I like least but I haven't had yet a better idea.

Yrme
I think the damage over time on gear sounds good. Yes, I might log off if I'm not actively doing something for the next hour (which might be good practice anyway), or I might park my armor while I'm doing some recordkeeping in game or just participating in chat (again, maybe good practice). Having to replace my gear every 100 hours in game without a death doesn't sound particularly onerous. In the absence of the threading mechanics, it might encourage more people to use less-than-max gear for routine activities.

I changed it to slow decay depending on damage. I think this would be much better as time logged in. So no need to take off armour if you do record keeping. But if you fight (PvE or PvP) then you slowly will lose durability unless you manage to never get hit at all. And then you deserve it.

Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Thod-Theodum
Rynnik
Drogon
@rynnik

I would like to hear some of your ideas for these sinks and faucets…I assume you posted some previously here on the forums? If so can you post a link? Do you have any new ideas that you haven't posted?

Crafting/refining coin cost. Pay the locked up gnomes!

Settlement or company level coin/resource sinks - probably holding and building upkeep sort of things. The higher level the sink is the better as it promotes more flexibility in how it is paid providing an additional social pressure and thing to be jointly worked around by player organizations. Get together for a PvE evening and donate the results. Ask for donations. Implement tax. Etc. Promotes both sinks and activities. Scale higher to be bigger as a way to make the 'big guys' pay more.

Crafting critical fail as resource sink. More market coin sinks. NPC to learn expendables so they have a training cost as well. Player trade fee.

IDK. Some or all. Mix and match. Lots of other possibilities exist as well including Thod's suggestions.

I think I must have missed this one. Likely because it was straight after donations and I'm sick and tired to twist arms or come here as a beggar.
Yes - if that would be possible as settlement leader then I would be less against building/outpost coin sinks. The difference between what I suggest as coin sink and what you suggest is

a) A settlement charges it (not GW). It would go to the settlement and not just disappear. This would make it much more tolerable for players and different tax classes could be incentives to stay in settlement a not b
b) The settlement pays the actual sink. So it wouldn't avoid the sink. But it would be important that it is tied to the building size/quality and would go up progressively.
c) Poor people would still pay - but that should be fine as they pay less if they have less
d) You can only avoid payments by leaving the settlement - handing it to an alt outside any settlement. Social pressure will take care of that. I would need a word with my player if my ultra rich PvEr moves all his coin from his main to his alt outside the settlement to avoid taxation for our settlement.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Baron Malthius
I'm kind of with Thorgrim on this one, at least with the idea of the Tavern being a coin sink.

The spirit of it is what I like most. Give more coin sinks, but provide some sort of small little bonus for a time or something. Maybe having NPCs by the crafting trainers provide a few low level tier 1 recipes for some coin would be good too. Things like this to again provide positive reinforcement mechanics. The biggest problem with unavoidable coin sinks is it gives no positive benefit. It feels like players are almost being punished for just doing what they need to do and will (as others have mentioned before) look for loopholes to get around it.

Here, these are small little boons for people but nothing particularly game breaking in the long run. You gotta give coin sinks that people WANT to use, not just ones they have to use in order to keep doing what they are already doing.

It will also have the additional effect of making the world feel more alive. Providing services and NPC merchants that exist to do business adds immersion, as it makes it feel less and less like they are just standing around waiting for you to spend your XP. It makes it feel like these NPCs do things that don't always revolve around you.
 
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