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thoughts after a month

Drogon
Well written…
HpoD - "I have, however, sat and watched as others took things more personally (on both sides) and became zealots, charging forward on a shining white horse into a pile of shit. Forum Warriors at their peak, striding the battlefield knee deep in the bloody, broken arguments of their adversaries before the burning village of their credibility….Chill guys. "
Giorgio
Gluggo,

+1 ; your spot on an preaching to the quire here.

I would say that a lot of the old "Alpha Aristocracy" agrees with your criticisms and observations; give the game some more time and come back later, to see if it improves enough for you to feel your $15/month is worth it. smile
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

PM Giorgo on Paizo Forums
PM Admin George on Commonwealth of the Free Highlands
Giorgio
Gluggo
2) I PERSONALLY HAVE NO INTEREST IN HOLDINGS, CASTLES, LAND MANAGEMENT OR MANAGING PEOPLE OR ASSETS. That is too close to real life for me. I don't enjoy doing or filing my taxes or doing our monthly budget, I just don't enjoy it. I want to be entertained for my dollars. I don't want to work. I understand that some people love this aspect of a game. It's just not me, I want to stab things, take their treasure, hope for a magical doo-dad and buy stuff, and by "stuff" I don't mean another +2 weapon that is identical to the +2 weapon I have now. How about something that is interesting? You are PAIZO! You have books on this stuff, instead I'm killing Ogres over mushrooms?

Hey Tink, look! A kindred spirit. Loots like the hate is strong in this one and just needs the right motivation to stab the right people for the right reasons. A prime candidate to fully test out the Faction System ™ once it comes online. smile
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

PM Giorgo on Paizo Forums
PM Admin George on Commonwealth of the Free Highlands
Giorgio
Gluggo
This is Pathfinder Online, it's not: Pathfinder which is played Online, which is really what we were hoping it would be.

This quote for me sums up the main obstacle that PFO has to attract the PF table top players (which I am very much one of); everything else (mechanics wise) falls short to this. If GW can make these players feel like they are playing Pathfinder RPG in an online form, this game will be very much successful.
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

PM Giorgo on Paizo Forums
PM Admin George on Commonwealth of the Free Highlands
Caustus
Gluggo,
I first started with exactly the same expectations. I play in a TT game every Sunday night, and I thought this would be an awesome side adventure. I had a similar group of friends also join on the 2 week trials, and they did the same as your friends, dump it after the trial. Aside from the "unfinished" qualities I felt like I was in a poorly run Alpha game. I sat back for a couple of days and re-read the mission statement about the game and in particular the "sandbox" description and gave it a good think. As most of my online stuff came from Themeparks, that was my expectation for this game as well. I had a very experienced gamer friend, who quit, review the game after his trial. He said, "I just want to log in for a few hours, lose myself in the game, and then go to bed." He did not want the commitment to crafting, settlement/company, or to chase question marks. I think most people who have stuck around are wishing for more, can see the rainbow, and may have the patience to stick it out.
My reason for staying here versus any of the other games living on my desktop is the definite sense of community within the game. The Elder PvP factions do indeed run flame wars on the forums, but that conflict always (generally) has the best interests of the core game in mind.
I think at this point, the best way to think of the game is the sandbox. Everyone has old clunky Tonka trucks and spoons for shovels. As time goes by, hopefully this will turn into a much better sandbox that resembles more of the Pathfinder we all know and love.
My dream is player created content (dungeons) and conflict (wars).

Think how cool would it be to find 3 mercenaries in the woods, have as an option or social feat "Recruit/Hire" (PF Diplomacy skill) and have them join your Company as long as you pay their fee, duration based on level of help and Charisma. Go around recruiting goblins and send them against your enemies walls, now THAT is PvP. The great thing also is that the Devs are not IGNORING their community like EVERY OTHER GAME. Lots of input and adjustment.
Daeglin
I'm gonna disagree with most repliers. With respect to the OP's opinion, his post doesn't highlight problems with the game, it highlights problems with the game as intended vs. the players marketed to. The majority of his group weren't looking for pvp-focussed, territory management game. They either weren't informed, or didn't bother to learn, as to the type of game they were signing up for. If players even after a month can't identify that the company making this game is Goblinworks, not Paizo, there is a communication problem with orienting/inviting new players.
Good… Bad… I'm the guy with the bow.
MidknightDiamond
Daeglin
I'm gonna disagree with most repliers. With respect to the OP's opinion, his post doesn't highlight problems with the game, it highlights problems with the game as intended vs. the players marketed to. The majority of his group weren't looking for pvp-focussed, territory management game. They either weren't informed, or didn't bother to learn, as to the type of game they were signing up for. If players even after a month can't identify that the company making this game is Goblinworks, not Paizo, there is a communication problem with orienting/inviting new players.
I have to sort of agree here and it really confuses me. I started backing this with the tech demo and then the kickstarter. I didn't read every update or every blog, I said "screw it" to the forums on paizo when some of the treaties started coming out because things just got ridiculous drama-wise. And yet I still knew exactly what this game was supposed to be… settlement building, open world pvp for resources, bandits, murderers, assassins for hire, heroes and factions at war not just with npc's for the pve but other players. And… eventually the Emerald Spire dungeon. I understand that a lot of new players don't know this information, don't realize that's what this game is… but it really does baffle me how some people who've been here longer than me could have missed that. While the game needs A LOT of work and certainly things aren't shaping up quite as planned in some areas, it's still the game they said they were going to build and still the game they're trying to build. A lot of things do need fixed and there's a lot of things I'm disappointed that aren't working better, but it is still pretty much what was stated they were going for. And this is coming from a long time Tabletop player who generally tries to avoid pvp too.
Aurora Silverstar, Pathfinder University Quartermaster & Explorer
Kiernan Silverstar, Aurora's lazy & good-for-nothing younger brother who just likes to blow things up.

PM MidknightDiamond on Paizo Forum
Gluggo
@ Daeglin and Midnight

Some of us who got involved "sort of" understood some of the concepts. What we did understand was the label Pathfinder, and that our invitation came from Paizo via an email from them.

The invitation did not say "A sandbox game based on pvp, resources, bandits, settlement building, etc….. that will at our discretion use the Pathfinder rules where we see fit." If it had that caveat, ie.; "at our discretion use the Pathfinder rules where we see fit" I think many of us would have had a different expectation of what the game is.

It would be akin to purchasing a boxed set for Star Wars, opening it up and finding Space Balls. Yes, they both have a big black helmet, there are light sabers, galaxies, etc, but for some people, it is a bit of a shock. It is not pathfinder. It is "pathfinderish", the problem is that the name PATHFINDER is the selling point. SANDBOX is not the selling point, resources was not the selling point. At least to the people who signed up through Paizo. For them (me), it was the Pathfinder name. I hear many players from the early beta came from EVE, I never did EVE, but for those players, they fully expected what they are getting. It was probably marketed to them that way, and they probably had little or no interest in Pathfinder.

I don't feel duped or anything, I mean, it's just a game. These were just my observations from a new player who through an invitation from the Paizo email, or through a link on the Pathfinder Paizo website joined up expecting that this was Pathfinder played in an online manner. Its not. Like I said, it has shades of Pathfinder, but for a whole bunch of us TT players, we are sticklers for rules and we like to know where we stand. If you are a TT gamer, how many games have had to take a break for an hour while the lawyers were brought in to examine forensic evidence of a rules violation and every book on the shelf spread across the floor while laptops pop open in search of "the final ruling". I've seen it happen often.

Someone at the game shop last week said the only reason that Paizo would lend their name out was in hopes of making a computer game so complicated, that they could somehow get people to buy monthly magazine subscriptions to keep up with all the changes that will be dialed in from month to month.

I didn't like that. Maybe that's why I will stick it out, because there are a lot of TT players at my gameshop that have a real skeptical view of anything that either WoC or Paizo does, and I do believe that this game has good intention. I mean, I have met some really really nice people here. Folks who have spent upwards of 2 hours a night with me, going over stuff just to keep me interested. I think I stick because I really like Paizo, I really like Pathfinder, and I want to thumb my nose at the game shop naysayers who are telling me that I am just another sucker being suckered into future monthly print subscriptions.
Edam
Gluggo
@ Daeglin and Midnight

Some of us who got involved "sort of" understood some of the concepts. What we did understand was the label Pathfinder, and that our invitation came from Paizo via an email from them.

The invitation did not say "A sandbox game based on pvp, resources, bandits, settlement building, etc….. that will at our discretion use the Pathfinder rules where we see fit." If it had that caveat, ie.; "at our discretion use the Pathfinder rules where we see fit" I think many of us would have had a different expectation of what the game is.

It would be akin to purchasing a boxed set for Star Wars, opening it up and finding Space Balls. Yes, they both have a big black helmet, there are light sabers, galaxies, etc, but for some people, it is a bit of a shock. It is not pathfinder. It is "pathfinderish", the problem is that the name PATHFINDER is the selling point. SANDBOX is not the selling point, resources was not the selling point. At least to the people who signed up through Paizo. For them (me), it was the Pathfinder name. I hear many players from the early beta came from EVE, I never did EVE, but for those players, they fully expected what they are getting. It was probably marketed to them that way, and they probably had little or no interest in Pathfinder.

I don't feel duped or anything, I mean, it's just a game. These were just my observations from a new player who through an invitation from the Paizo email, or through a link on the Pathfinder Paizo website joined up expecting that this was Pathfinder played in an online manner. Its not. Like I said, it has shades of Pathfinder, but for a whole bunch of us TT players, we are sticklers for rules and we like to know where we stand. If you are a TT gamer, how many games have had to take a break for an hour while the lawyers were brought in to examine forensic evidence of a rules violation and every book on the shelf spread across the floor while laptops pop open in search of "the final ruling". I've seen it happen often.

Someone at the game shop last week said the only reason that Paizo would lend their name out was in hopes of making a computer game so complicated, that they could somehow get people to buy monthly magazine subscriptions to keep up with all the changes that will be dialed in from month to month.

I didn't like that. Maybe that's why I will stick it out, because there are a lot of TT players at my gameshop that have a real skeptical view of anything that either WoC or Paizo does, and I do believe that this game has good intention. I mean, I have met some really really nice people here. Folks who have spent upwards of 2 hours a night with me, going over stuff just to keep me interested. I think I stick because I really like Paizo, I really like Pathfinder, and I want to thumb my nose at the game shop naysayers who are telling me that I am just another sucker being suckered into future monthly print subscriptions.

Two issues:

Problem (1) put very simply is Piazo only own the Pathfinder setting and fluff and do not own the D20 rules they used as a basis for Pathfinder TT.

The license Piazo have restricts them to using the D20 rules for something like "roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that contain the Licensed Materials and are published in a hardcover or soft-cover printed book format or in a single downloaded electronic book format(such as .pdf)". (The exact wording will depend on what version of the OGL D20 license they operate under.)

There is no licence to use the D20 rules in online games without WoC permission which they are never going to give - ever.

Problem (2) is the TT D20 rules are designed around a turn based game where a lot off decisions go into every 6 seconds of action and are hence totally unsuitable for a real time online MMO.
Caustus
I think you are right, Gluggo, its like taking a drink of milk to find out its orange juice. A better name since its devs and players are all from EvE would have been Med-EvE-ill.
 
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