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Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Bringslite
Insisting it is completely launched and basing your opinions on that is flawed.smile

You are in the minority in that opinion.

* No Wipe
* Persistent Character Progression
* Basic Features Complete
* Minimum Viable Product achieved
* Full Subscription Based Model in place
* Open Enrollment (no limitations on who may begin playing).

This game is launched with the exception of one feature, which is in the next patch, the ability to capture settlements.

Other features / systems are not integral to the game play, but may enhance it greatly (ie. Factions).
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Bringslite
Dreaden
I paid for a box and a monthly sub and there will be no wipe. The product is launched by industry standards and will be judged as such. Buying into any label GW has created to avoid conventional terms such as alpha and beta testing is your problem not mine.

Do MMOs (launched MMos) come with a discloser that the game is rough, no where near finished, unpolished, and not really for everyone at this point?

I doubt it. You are stuck in your rigid definition and I in mine. The thing is though, I can except the reality that the creator of the product should have final say concerning when it is launched. When they decide to proclaim that it is ready for all types of players, they probably won't be telling interested parties that it is a year + from being ready.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Duffy Swiftshadow
You can keep claiming whatever you want by whatever definition you want to make up, but it is what it is, just deal with it and quit whining about it.
Brighthaven Leader
I think Dreaden could have put it nicer, but there is a very real reasons why several websites have started to review the game. Dancey might have been trying to start some kind of revolution, but I don't think its catching on.

A lot of this has to do with the pricing. If there was never a sub, until OE, just a box price I think a lot of the negativity wouldn't have spread so far, and thus the chain of events that has occurred. A box price could have been played off as getting the game and testing access, as some companies do, but we have what we have at this point, no going back.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Bringslite
I have to wonder whether going back to the box price and a free sub until OE wouldn't be a very good economic decision.

I don't have to wonder if such a move might cause some ripples in the current subscribers pool. I would not bat an eyelash, myself, if it doubled or tripled the subscriber base.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bringslite
Cheatle for TEO
I think Dreaden could have put it nicer, but there is a very real reasons why several websites have started to review the game. Dancey might have been trying to start some kind of revolution, but I don't think its catching on.

A lot of this has to do with the pricing. If there was never a sub, until OE, just a box price I think a lot of the negativity wouldn't have spread so far, and thus the chain of events that has occurred. A box price could have been played off as getting the game and testing access, as some companies do, but we have what we have at this point, no going back.

This whole branch of discussion has to deal with Devs playing in their product after the game has launched. Should GW decide that they should not play in the game if/when it is launched?

If yes:

Should GW not play PfO (to gleem 1st hand looks) if the public decides the game is launched, even though it isn't launched? What else should they change… from among all the comments about what they should change from "The Public" opinion either because "it is launched" or because it is a good idea to do everything that people (who don't even play) say you should do with your game?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Brighthaven Leader
I didn't say they shouldn't play, Bringslite, and they are getting some useful info, but if they intend to really capture the feeling of the server they need to be involved on multiple levels. A lot of dev teams do it in secret (this is why you almost always see major companies have issues, its a common practice), I don't think that is an option here. Being attached to a neutral group, with Dev tags (bloodstone swords), all the way on the eastern side of the map, out of the way of any of the fighting that has happened (or major politics), they have created their own bubble inside of the server that isn't always indicative of actual gameplay.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Bringslite
Cheatle for TEO
I think Dreaden could have put it nicer, but there is a very real reasons why several websites have started to review the game. Dancey might have been trying to start some kind of revolution, but I don't think its catching on.

A lot of this has to do with the pricing. If there was never a sub, until OE, just a box price I think a lot of the negativity wouldn't have spread so far, and thus the chain of events that has occurred. A box price could have been played off as getting the game and testing access, as some companies do, but we have what we have at this point, no going back.

This whole branch of discussion has to deal with Devs playing in their product after the game has launched. Should GW decide that they should not play in the game if/when it is launched?

If yes:

Should GW not play PfO (to gleem 1st hand looks) if the public decides the game is launched, even though it isn't launched? What else should they change… from among all the comments about what they should change from "The Public" opinion either because "it is launched" or because it is a good idea to do everything that people (who don't even play) say you should do with your game?

The Devs should play on the test server, that is what a test server is for. Does anyone actually know that around here? A TEST SERVER is used to TEST the game mechanics, server stability, patches BEFORE release, etc etc… So that they don't break stuff on the Live server or create negative perceptions of favoritism / impropriety.

As I stated earlier, on the Live Server.. "Observe", "Inquire" and "Moderate" for clarity, "Moderate" refers to on the spot fixes like /unstuck or other quick solutions for glitches / bugs.

At least it did not appear that the devs engaged in PVP to thwart th PVP attacks on the escalation participants, however simply assisting during the escalation against the Mobs is giving benefit to those players.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Bringslite
"I agree Dreaden, when Lisa was attaching Bloodstone swords to Brighthaven, I told her that she should move it, because it could cause all kinds of drama and backlash towards GW. I thought what might work better for them, because this is a community driven game, is to attach it to different settlements and work with their people for a period of time, kind of like an extension of the Keepside Chats, but experiencing what each settlement goes through, politically and economically. The other option was to make anon characters and seed them into the community."

@ Cheatle

Sorry. The above was what I should have quoted in my post. Re reading it, I see your point more clearly.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Dreaden
It's all about PR and reaching population critical mass, for the health of the game. The vast majority of mmorpg gamers are veterans of the genre and can spot the warning signs a mile away. Open in game dev interaction being one warning sign. Sub for unfinished product is another, this is possibly the biggest. GW says game is unfinished, but insists on charging sub and not having wipe. The only reason this works is the exp model and players willingness to support a unfinished product for an advantage over future players.
 
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