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Whither PFO?

Nihimon
Or: Where Is This Going?

I'm starting a new thread on the unlikely chance that no one from Goblinworks has seen any of my recent posts. I expect that Goblinworks just isn't interested in responding.

Is PFO trying to be a game that reintroduces meaningful PvP to an audience that has largely rejected it, in a way that's not only palatable but enjoyable to them? Or is PFO just another PvP Sandbox?

From the beginning, I've believed it was the former. That's the special thing that made PFO different, and worth my time and money. I saw the potential of the War of Towers and Holding Warfare to channel the actions of hardcore PvPers into something more meaningful that would actually appeal to that more mainstream audience that had rejected PvP. But there were supposed to be some very specific things that kept it from getting out of control, such as the aggressors putting their own Holdings at risk when they launched attacks, and a Feud Cooldown that would keep the same attackers from being able to constantly Feud the same defenders. The state of the design currently is that both of those constraints are so easily bypassed that they are utterly meaningless.

So, is PFO moving in the direction you want it to? Are the constant attacks something we should expect long-term? Will we ever have the opportunity to exploit our attacker's vulnerability when we can actually play?

I'd really appreciate it if EoX and EBA would avoid piling onto this thread and actually give Goblinworks and the rest of the community an opportunity to be heard.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Memory-High Priest of Desna
Am interested in the implications of this discussion on the implementation of PVP windows.

Deliver GW!
Adventure Time with the High Priest of Desna, begins Tuesday 08/18 at 6:00pm EST (10:00 server time) at the Thornkeep Auction house. All new players welcome!

Official titles and Nicknames:
Spherewalker of Indor-Mardil, High Priest of Desna, Dreaden-appointed Forum Troll Extraordinaire, The Southern Speedster, Slinger of Stars, Newbie-Bear, Gutter of Golgothans, King of Kiters, Johnny Ustalavian-Seed, and Peaches.
Doc
Am interested in the implications of this discussion on the implementation of PVP windows.

As long as the discussion is couched in the idea that US prime time isn't ideal for everyone, and that if you have leadership living in Europe having your PvP window set to be viable for European players should not be considered gaming the system.
Memory-High Priest of Desna
fair enough doc. i didn't mean to imply that. i'm actually more interested in how that double standard gets finally shaken out. US players can complain about EU windows, EU players can complain about US windows, but nothing gets solved. I'm interested in seeing if GW ever finds a way to end the argument.
Adventure Time with the High Priest of Desna, begins Tuesday 08/18 at 6:00pm EST (10:00 server time) at the Thornkeep Auction house. All new players welcome!

Official titles and Nicknames:
Spherewalker of Indor-Mardil, High Priest of Desna, Dreaden-appointed Forum Troll Extraordinaire, The Southern Speedster, Slinger of Stars, Newbie-Bear, Gutter of Golgothans, King of Kiters, Johnny Ustalavian-Seed, and Peaches.
Edam
Memory
fair enough doc. i didn't mean to imply that. i'm actually more interested in how that double standard gets finally shaken out. US players can complain about EU windows, EU players can complain about US windows, but nothing gets solved. I'm interested in seeing if GW ever finds a way to end the argument.

Two windows a day 12 hours apart ?
Doc
I've suggested something like that before. Where the Attacker and Defender in a feud can attack each other's holding during both of their PvP windows. Maybe something to make it work better is to reduce the capture rate against your holdings by 1/2 during your non-selected PvP window (because presumably it isn't an optimal time for you).
Nihimon
Making the defender's Holdings vulnerable during the attacker's PvP Window is about the worst possible thing that could come out of this discussion.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Duffy Swiftshadow
Doc brings up a good point I always wrestle with internally when discussing these things.

I think the idea many would like to see is that your primary muster time should also be your primary defense time. While rearranging schedules is acceptable once in awhile (for Nihimon's former part's audience), doing it regularly is not, and those are the players that I assume the game would be trying to make PvP and the repercussions of it more palatable to compared to those coming from games where the current situation is more like the norm.

The scenario this implies is that if you want to fight someone off hours it should be a planned weekend event or require significant rescheduling. It's a bit interesting to note that it's often easier to push your hours back, but not earlier. I can never manage a weekday afternoon time before 5pm local, it just won't happen due to work, but I can push evenings out to 3 or 4am local once in awhile.

Some of this could be solved by simply having a larger international audience and better player distribution across play-times, but your never going to get it perfect. You could also solve it by making it harder to move around your PvP window so opponents can plan better, there are several things they can pursue.

But the important question is the core of this thread, what are they planning to do? The answer is going to drive whether or not a decent portion of those playing will want to stick around through the growing pains or not, at least for a good portion of those I have talked too.
Gaskon
Reposting some thoughts from another thread in hopes that Goblinworks reads it and realizes that many of us are feeling the same dissatisfaction with the current PVP trends that Nihimon is expressing:

I'm an inactive Forgeholm member who checks the forums hoping some patch notes draw me back in.
I've paid subscription for my wife and I for one year. Going to have a real hard time continuing to justify spending money on a game we're not playing if something doesn't draw us to log in regularly before that time is up.

I am interested in the excitement and competition of PVP, but I don't want it to become a daily commitment, and I don't want to worry about going on vacation for a week and coming back to a burnt ruin of a settlement.

My experiences with PvP in PFO so far have shown me that limited, casual conflict isn't possible. Attack one Callambea holding once, and EoX is going to come burn Forgeholm to the ground (or at least threaten to do so). Attack one Aragon holding once, and its going to be open season on all the gatherers and crafters in Forgeholm that don't want any PvP at all.

Sure, we are friendly enough with HRC that we might be able to designate a "combat hex" and have an agreement limiting our conflicts to some sort of scheduled arena battles, but that sounds like a lot of organizational work for not very much fun.

I loved the vision set out in the kickstarter and the paizo forums. I want persistence, I want territorial conflict and settlement pride, but I can't make PFO my lifestyle game. I have limited leisure time, and other entertainments I enjoy.
When I think realistically about it, what I really want is more like a league of legends match or a WoW battleground, with some persistent consequences for the winner and loser.

I want to log in for a hour, and be able to easily find an objective-based small group PVP match between approximately equal sides in terms of numbers and prowess, resolve the conflict and then logout. And then be able to not login for a day or two and be confident that my participation in the PVP didn't make life miserable for my settlement mates.

If PFO can ever offer that I'll be willing to overlook any amount of questionable graphics and confusing feat / training systems.
Quijenoth Starkiller
I doubt you'll get an answer.

Right now PFO is like one of those paintings that you have no idea what its meant to be until its finished.

and we are along way from that right now. Ask again once OE is announced, then you will have all the pieces to make your own decision on if its one thing or another.
Quijenoth Starkiller Viceroy of Callambea
Company Leader of Beyond the Grave - www.beyond-pfo.com
Crafting Planner
 
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