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Concerning Golgotha

Nihimon
So, the whole Land Rush thing keeps coming up - it's almost like Golgotha is proud of it, or is happy to pretend that it was nothing but Decius and me trying to get them kicked out of it. That's bullshit, and anyone who wants to read the whole thread is welcome to: Concerning Pax in the Land Rush.

I'm not going to rehash the arguments I made in that thread. I'm just going to highlight some posts by Ryan, so this community can get a reasonably neutral perspective of what was actually going on. I'm not going to quote the whole post ever time, because I don't want this to be an unreadable wall of text, but I will provide links to each post I quote so you can read the whole thing, in context, for yourself. All emphasis in original.

Link:
Ryan Dancey
Let me explain my concerns so that we're both on the same page, and you can tell me if you think there's a problem with Golgatha's participation in the Land Rush promotion.

We are actively reaching out to big meta-game MMO Guilds… You and I both know there are some of those Guilds who are immense - thousands, in some cases tens of thousands, of members. And some of them purport to be and occasionally actually are as chaotic as orks.

… I fully expect that one of the things they will try to do is "game" the promotion by setting up shell organizations to try and take and hold multiple spots on the map. It's clearly the best strategic plan at this stage in the game and succeeding could set a group up for a significant, lasting, meaningful advantage throughout Early Enrollment and thus likely persisting into Open Enrollment. In other words, there's a chance that behavior in this promotion could have effects that last for the next 5+ years of the game - before most of its players will even have heard that it exists.

The temptation to attempt to do this I believe will be directly correlated to the impression people have that it is already being done. Being just another group gaming the system has a lower psychological barrier than being the first group to do it. In fact, I originally reached out to Deacon because I essentially got PM'd by people saying exactly that: If Pax is going to get away with this then we feel not only permitted, but obligated to do the same thing, because the downstream benefits are so incredibly immense.

If you look at this situation from the outside, which is what I am doing, and what everyone else who comes to this game will do, it's very hard to say that Golgatha is a separate entity from Pax…. I feel it's reasonable to conclude that they're going to take one look at Pax and Golgatha and presume that's the loophole that is open to swarm the leaderboard.
I'm not going to tell you that Golgatha can't be on the leaderboard…

What I will ask you to do is to consider if Golgatha's participation in the promotion is really in the best interests of the game, and of Pax itself…

Your community has a chance to set some baseline norms of behavior. I'd ask you to carefully consider your response in that light.

Link:
Ryan Dancey
I have been a part of building communities now for close to 2 decades. I've seen pretty much every degenerate condition that can develop. So I have some hard-won opinions about what works and what does not work.

The one thing I have learned over and over is to trust the community… Time after time, I have seen that when the community, en masse, makes itself known on some subject, it almost always produces an 80/20 majority. And if you listen to what the 80% are saying, you are almost always going to have a better outcome than if you listen to what the 20% are saying (not always - especially in the case of game balance issues - but most often when the issue involves the community's perception of standards and ethics)…

A successful sandbox MMO cannot be run within a framework of "everything not permitted is forbidden", or "everything not forbidden is permitted". Do a deep dive on any game that has tried those approaches and all you will find is chaos, alienation, and failure.

Instead, there must be a hybrid between hard & fast rules established by us, the administrators, for the purpose of good order and functioning of the product, fuzzy guidelines regarding appropriate behavior that will be enforced as necessary for the best interests of the game, the community and the business, and standards evolved by the community and policed by the community for the commons you hold jointly…

YOU are responsible for deciding that is the kind of engagement you want to have with Pathfinder Online, and with one another.

Link
Ryan Dancey
To me, the question that confronts the community is not the question of moving votes from one group to another. The question should be "is Pax one guild, or several?"

If it is one guild, then no member of Pax, regardless of the history or timeline of that membership should vote for any guild but Pax Aeturnum.

If it is several guilds, then there's no meaningful problem except in the case of people who voted for Pax Aeturnum in Phase I and subsequently shifted their votes in Phase II. It would be scrupulous for Pax Aterunum to clearly tell its members not to vote for anyone but Pax Aeturnum, but that's just optics.

And frankly, I don't necessarily think Pax' opinion about their structure is the defining one. Perception will be the reality in this case.

Link
Ryan Dancey
People who cannot even play the game yet have spent at least a week discussing this issue, sometimes with careful reason and sometimes with intemperate remarks. That shows me that this is an important topic that has a lot of people concerned…

You may not like the fact that Golgatha is on the leaderboard. You may not like the fact that some people who don't like the fact that Golgatha is on the leaderboard have gone public with that dislike. Tough. These are the kinds of discussions which are going to become more, not less, common as time progresses. Get used to having to see people say things you don't like seeing.

Link
Ryan Dancey
Goblinworks is not going to remove Golgatha from the Leaderboard.

We cannot assert a right to tell the community who is and is not a Guild for the purposes of the Land Rush because it is impossible to write a rule that will be definitive, and that cannot be easily gamed.

Golgatha, and Pax, have to decide how they want to approach the promotion, and live with the consequences of their actions. Those consequences will not include being removed by Goblinworks from the promotion.

We've been very clear what we expect of the winners of Phase I. The community will let Gogatha and Pax know to the extent they feel those expectations are being honored. You are your own referees. You collectively own this problem. You can engage with it, or ignore it, as you see fit.

Link
Ryan Dancey
I expect you to listen to and consider what it means that there are pages and pages of people calling for your removal. You're not acting in a vacuum.

Over and over, Ryan makes reference to the community's opinion being the only real question, and that Golgotha would have to live with the consequences of their actions. But there aren't any meaningful consequences because Goblinworks chose to make the War of Towers meaningless by putting the baseline power level at practically the same level as the most powerful Settlements could achieve. Now in Holding Warfare, with full-time Level 20 Support, it looks like Goblinworks wants to bake in the fact that Character Power is sacrosanct, so the only meaningful consequence the community could impose on Golgotha is utterly neutered.

What difference would it have made in the months since if, the first time "the whole server" gathered to attack Golgotha, they had actually felt the sting of becoming less powerful individually? That was the game I thought I was buying into, where there were consequences. Now, I wonder if it's already too late.

We've defeated Golgotha over and over again, ten days straight when Holding Warfare was introduced and on numerous occasions during the War of Towers, and it never matters because of design decisions by Goblinworks.

So, I'm begging Goblinworks to please let us know what we should expect. Are we playing a game where actions have consequences, and where it's up to the community to police the standards we want, or are we playing a game where Golgotha will continue to be shielded by Goblinworks from the consequences of their actions?
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
"Character Power is sacrosanct"

Character power is sacrosanct because there is no way to reconcile the perception that by losing a settlement or access to one, you lose skills you have paid for with real money, via the subscription cost. It is in perception a "roll back" of xp, that have may resulted from actions that were not of your own making.

Under the old system, the loss of a settlement would very likely lead to a massive departure from the game. Now, some people might like to keep PFO as their private little playground of 40 - 60 players like an Multiplayer version of Farmville, but that is not what the average MMO player is looking for.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Tigari
lol bringing this back up again smile you realize the original Pax never even started playing right? The only pax people playing ( other then CharlieGeorge who just came back to us), is the Golgotha Leadership like myself who joined AFTER we formed Golgotha and started an alliance with Pax Auternum( the settlement of callambea). Pax also recently withdrew Pax Division Support from both settlements since so few pax members actually play the game.
So yes thanks for bringing this up, it helps people understand why we love coming down south for fun as much as we do, and it just pumped me up again, I was getting bored of taking holdings without any opposition, maybe I'll have to say screw rep and start hunting the gatherers again smile that normally brings out the blob
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
I was wonder, what happened to this?

Your text to link here...

Nihimon
I would like to publicly apologize to UNC & Pax, specifically to Bluddwolf, Xeen, and Areks, but also to everyone else who has had to endure my sniping and to the mods who've had to step in and put a stop to it.

This game is very important to me, and it's important to me for very specific reasons. I felt threatened by what I saw happening, and I reacted poorly.

This community is also very important to me, and I feel partly responsible for the negative tone it has taken of late. I "washed my hands" of it in the middle of another thread, but that's not enough. I also need to publicly apologize and publicly promise to just let it go. It's not my place to try to force anyone to accept anything.

I hope that this public apology will be enough to put an end to a lot of the sniping that is directed back at me, but if it's not I understand, and I still promise to just let it go. They say time heals all wounds, and we have lots of time.

Nihimon
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Smitty
What I don’t get is why do you guys still bring this up? There are a handful people in the current make up of our group that were around for that stuff . All the new folks wonder what your deal is. So news flash .. I don’t care about it, I wasn’t around for it, yet at least once a month for 8 months you bring it up..
.
I fight you guys because the way you guys act , I fight you because of what you guys have done in game .
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You guys on the other hand seem to dislike me, based on what a handful of people did months before there was even a game..
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All those Pax folks didn’t show up to play the game, so in a way they were removed . The ones who stayed were forced into leadership roles, picked up the pieces and recruited folks like myself. There were like 4 guys from Pax when I joined, and recently they moved out of pax completely. What do you consider your win condition to be on this subject? Do you want the people they recruited like myself to take over a settlement give it a new name and then come fight you ?
Dreaden
Defending a holding by zerg rushing naked players into a capture point from a shrine 5 feet away is "defeating" golgotha over and over eh? Sounds more like abuse of crappy respawn and capture mechanics to me.
Doc
Defending a holding by zerg rushing naked players into a capture point from a shrine 5 feet away is "defeating" golgotha over and over eh? Sounds more like abuse of crappy respawn and capture mechanics to me.

I wouldn't say abuse of those capture mechanics. I wasn't surprised how those fights turned out considering the shrine placement.

What would be pretty shocking is if Goblin Works added mechanics where by if that kind of battle occurred, where it was essentially naked blobbing, and little to no material loss was occurred by the attackers, and yet they still received an effectiveness debuff to their capabilties by having "lost" the feud for the holding.

It would devolve the territory game into simply being about whoever has the most players. But I suppose some people wanting that kind of gameplay isn't that surprising.
Zycor
smilesmile
Nihimon
Zycor
… when Phaeros was apart of PAX…

Phaeros was never a part of Pax.

The Seventh Veil was never a part of Pax.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Just Dak
Nihimon
Zycor
… when Phaeros was apart of PAX…

Phaeros was never a part of Pax.

The Seventh Veil was never a part of Pax.

It was an all around troll post Nihimon. Though it is probably worth pointing out anyway in case someone wildly new that also checks the forums might take it as gospel.

Still most of the post is wrong on purpose.
Give me a reasonable despot any day. Someone that constantly reminds everyone that they are virtuous and honorable can not be trusted to be either. If you are good we will know by your deeds, if you are reasonable we will know by our deals.
 
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