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Whither Forever War?

Edam
Midnight
Cheatle for TEO
See, I think the problem is that its no where near the sweet spot.

One side likes it how it is, and the other side wants changes. Until the polar ends are partially unsatisfied and the middle is fine, then we aren't where we should be.

While I like how it is, I'm also used to how it is from playing other sandboxes.

If you antagonize someone in Eve-Online you might face 10 years of payback. If you constantly antagonize someone in Eve you will face 10 years of constant payback.

An enemy that can just flip you off and laugh because they are somehow immune to attack isn't realistic or reasonable.
EVE despite its reputation and to the annoyance of some EVE players is also a game where you can avoid PvP entirely. Station traders for example never undock. If you live in bluesec the chances of getting ganked are nil. If you are in highsec in a NPC corp the chances of getting hassled are also very low as no-one can wardec you. You might have issues if you are solo or in a small mining corp or roaming PvP gang but thats about it.
Midnight
Edam
Midnight
What is keeping both sides away is an unfinished game that is charging $15 a month when there are plenty of finished (or closer to finished) games competing against PFO.

I do not agree with this.

Possibly Gologotha, because they were amazingly succesfull at getting virtually all the PvPers joining the game to flock to them (and as an unfortunate side effect gave themselves no-one to fight) has a lot of people who play or want to play other games.

For many of the members of my settlement, including quite a few that have left, PFO is the only game they play and in some cases the only MMO they have ever played. In my own case the only other game I play at all is EVE.

The composition of your settlement or mine doesn't reflect who this game needs to subscribe to be successful. The people GW needs to subscribe is basically the general consumer. Even if they are looking for just one game, they are wading through a lot of games while searching for the one true game whose purchase will finally complete them as a consumer.

I'm just saying unfinished game at $15/month looks…
unfinished… and not a good value to the general consumer.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
Edam
EVE despite its reputation and to the annoyance of some EVE players is also a game where you can avoid PvP entirely. Station traders for example never undock. If you live in bluesec the chances of getting ganked are nil. If you are in highsec in a NPC corp the chances of getting hassled are also very low as no-one can wardec you. You might have issues if you are solo or in a small mining corp or roaming PvP gang but thats about it.

The forever war has mirrored BoB versus Goonswarm.

While any member of BoB could hide in stations, BoB's holdings were at constant risk and any attempt to grind PvE for isk (currency) put them at constant risk.

BoB simply couldn't hide (without losing everything they had built up).
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Brighthaven Leader
I think what I said pretty much reflects all of the responses since I posted.

@Midnight, the difference here is that holdings are no where near the costs, or time to build a PoS. Nor are they worth it, in fact if any settlement wanted they could just go grind PvE all day and buy Bulk Goods from another faction in game. You don't even need any holdings, you could just use infrastructures. I really don't think we can compare PFO to really anything, not only is it not finished, but 2 major features and a few subsystems would have completely changed how feuds would have been utilized.

So, I think what would be better for the game and be closer to the sweet spot like I mentioned is:

- Feuds just allow skirmishes that are Reputation Free, at the current costs, but remove holdings/outpost warfare.
- Add the War Dec command this requires DI, Bulk Resources, and a third resource granted by Pharasma.
- After a War Dec is initiated Feuds can be used to burn down holdings/outposts, there could be several costs for this, as you could have a normal feud, a feud to capture territory, and a feud to burn territory.
- The bottleneck here is the third resource, which would be rare, and in and of itself cause PvP.
- Pharasma's Blessings (for lack of a better name) could be found in T3 hexes, where PvP would be open.
- You could go to a shrine or a location in a T3 Hex (Monster/Monster Home) if you have an adjacent holding and pay an influence cost to reinstate reputation, but Pharasma's Blessings and T3 resources would be unattainable there.

This would create a situation where people would PvP to stop others from gaining the needed resources to burn down their holding/outposts. It would also create zone based reputation free pvp, and create tiered rewards. There would also be a way to opt-out some what, but only for X amount of time. Also, it would allow feuds to stay intact, and give more options of what feuds could do in a total war scenario.

Then with Factions:
- You allow companies to pledge to certain factions to change the type of guards they have at holdings/outposts.
- You allow a settlement to pledge to certain factions to change the type of guards they have, and those guards will protect you and allies during feuds, where as the Thornguards only protect you from low rep and flagged players.
- Factions require Pharasma's Blessings as well, so its a sought after resources, not only for settlements but for all aspects of Factions. If you want to level up your Faction, if you want your company to adopt a Faction, or if you want your settlement to adopt a Faction you have to pay in Pharasma's Blessings.

This again creates a situation of opting in or out of PvP, and if you want to grow your Faction on any level you have to PvP, or you can just not participate at that level at all. Also, Factions become a huge part of the world allowing companies and settlements to choose patron factions.

With incorporating Pharasma and the Factions so heavily into the mechanics you begin to see Golarion and its nuances, as well as more atmosphere. This gives Table Topers, Roleplayers, Carebears, PvPers, and everyone inbetween more reasons to participate.
Brighthaven is a Neutral Good settlement focused on defending its citizens and its allies from negative fringe based PvP (Player Killing and Griefing) while striving to become a large and shining beacon for Good. Whether you wish to benefit from this protection or you love PvP and wish to assist in providing this protection, Brighthaven aims to be the home and support center for you!
Nihimon
Midnight
An enemy that can just flip you off and laugh because they are somehow immune to attack isn't realistic or reasonable.

Amen, brother.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Cheatle for TEO
See, I think the problem is that its no where near the sweet spot.

One side likes it how it is, and the other side wants changes. Until the polar ends are partially unsatisfied and the middle is fine, then we aren't where we should be.
My impression is that neither side likes it as it is, but one side is willing to work with what they have.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Yrme
Cheatle for TEO
stuff

I don't think the territorial warfare has to be more complex. I simply think it needs to cost more. When one company of people can declare serial feuds against 4-5 companies at a time for an extended period, the cost is too low.

At the same time, we do need a easy way for companies to buy feud time, in places like fighting over PvE or gathering hexes. Or simply because they've located the character that has been taunting them in general chat.
At some point, crowdforging suggestions seem to be like fan fiction. Some good, some bad, some repetitious and predictable. But maybe there are some gems out there.
Nihimon
Caldeathe Baequiannia
My impression is that neither side likes it as it is, but one side is willing to work with what they have.

One side is able to engage in their preferred playstyle with virtually no constraints. The other is subject to far more PvP than they were led to believe would be possible, while at the same time not having access to the systems that would have allowed them to win some respite by their own actions.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Nihimon
Caldeathe Baequiannia
My impression is that neither side likes it as it is, but one side is willing to work with what they have.

One side is able to engage in their preferred playstyle with virtually no constraints. The other is subject to far more PvP than they were led to believe would be possible, while at the same time not having access to the systems that would have allowed them to win some respite by their own actions.
Maybe. Or maybe I was referring to Bandits, who have taken to harvesting bulk resources because they feel like they can't be bandits. Do you think Midnight and Bludd feel like they face no constraints?
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Decius
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Cheatle for TEO
See, I think the problem is that its no where near the sweet spot.

One side likes it how it is, and the other side wants changes. Until the polar ends are partially unsatisfied and the middle is fine, then we aren't where we should be.
My impression is that neither side likes it as it is, but one side is willing to work with what they have.
My impression is that there are far more than two sides, and by speaking as if they are we do a disservice to everyone including those people whose opinions we present.
 
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