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Minimum Viable Product

AlexanderDamocles
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Mistwalker
I think that things are evolving in regards to banditry. Most of the past banditry had to do with folks from Golgotha involved - which brought in a lot of history.

When Magus of Fianna attacked someone in High Road, High Road contacted Aragon to see what was going on, to see if there was something bigger than just a random murder/bit of banditry. Once we realized that it was simply banditry, with no griefing going on, some of us just put Magus on our own personal kill on sight list. When Magus announced in General where he was going, and some of us from High Road were nearby, we ambushed him and killed him. I removed him from my personal kill on sight list (and will only add him back if he misbehaves in my neck of the woods again, or kills a friend). There was no war declared, no long term feud declared or other such activity in response to the murder.

That has to do with the settlements that were involved, and the leadership of the parties that were involved. Bottom line, no one over reacted and we discussed the issue mostly in PMas.

Its amazing how peaceful things can be when the first response is for a pen instead of a sword.
Kitsune
It's always interesting to discuss this game with my closest friend - similar state of mind in a lot of areas, an IT Tech like myself, both into PC gaming, etc. etc - and we've known each other extremely well over the past ~16 years. Some of his views are obviously very different than my own, because, well, he's a different person. Okay, enough about this guy.

He was one of the "guild" backers with me that never started playing, and while discussing the recent "Events" with him regarding the status of the game, he was not too surprised. He said, "Honestly, when I put money down for this game, I wasn't expecting to see a finished product for 4-5 years. Sounds like that's probably going to be the case now, so whatever."

This comment really made me think deeply about the development timeline of this game. I really do believe that GW was too "rushed" to deliver the product. They were too rushed to bring the game out of Alpha into EE at the end of 2014, which was [in my opinion] the first critical mistake. They were too rushed to get an "MVP" ready for Q1/Q2 of 2016. And in doing so, it seems they skipped a few crucial "MVP" elements (like all the things mentioned in this thread and my previous post(s) here) before [they had to begin] charging subscription fees.

So, as my friend was basically saying, if the game takes another few years to be completed, it now won't be much of a surprise, and honestly, it might be good for the game if it does take that long.

Anyone else agree that there's no longer any need to rush?
AlexanderDamocles
There's no longer the capability to rush. You realistically can't put together large new systems with a team of three programmers at anything anywhere close to a reasonable speed.

Agreed that the rush to EE felt….foolish. I understand it needed to be done for business reasons, but it still somewhat rankled and turned off several of my friends from joining in.

I don't know the financials from January, and they may have had no choice but to start taking in subscriptions to keep the lights on. Regardless of how we got here, we're here, and new systems are essentially a non-starter. All we can do is try to find new ways to tweak current systems to make the game more fun while we wait and hope for new investors.
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Kitsune
It's always interesting to discuss this game with my closest friend - similar state of mind in a lot of areas, an IT Tech like myself, both into PC gaming, etc. etc - and we've known each other extremely well over the past ~16 years. Some of his views are obviously very different than my own, because, well, he's a different person. Okay, enough about this guy.

He was one of the "guild" backers with me that never started playing, and while discussing the recent "Events" with him regarding the status of the game, he was not too surprised. He said, "Honestly, when I put money down for this game, I wasn't expecting to see a finished product for 4-5 years. Sounds like that's probably going to be the case now, so whatever."

This comment really made me think deeply about the development timeline of this game. I really do believe that GW was too "rushed" to deliver the product. They were too rushed to bring the game out of Alpha into EE at the end of 2014, which was [in my opinion] the first critical mistake. They were too rushed to get an "MVP" ready for Q1/Q2 of 2016. And in doing so, it seems they skipped a few crucial "MVP" elements (like all the things mentioned in this thread and my previous post(s) here) before [they had to begin] charging subscription fees.

So, as my friend was basically saying, if the game takes another few years to be completed, it now won't be much of a surprise, and honestly, it might be good for the game if it does take that long.

Anyone else agree that there's no longer any need to rush?

I agree with you, but who in their right mind is going to subscribe to a game that can shut its servers at any moment?

At the end of this month virtually all that will be left are players with prepaid accounts. GW already has the money from those accounts. What I believe they should consider is shutting down the live server, until January. Continue fixing, polishing and adding minor elements. Allow Alpa players access only to the test server.

Separation makes the heart grow fonder. Some players will return just to be surprised by what they see. New players will be curious. Let it run for a few weeks or even months, then shut it down again. Open up again in June 2016 as a summer alpha….. Which reminds me…. Declare the game in alpha or at most advanced beta phase.

At each stage, advertise it as giving players a fresh and new look at the game's progress.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Bringslite
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Kitsune
It's always interesting to discuss this game with my closest friend - similar state of mind in a lot of areas, an IT Tech like myself, both into PC gaming, etc. etc - and we've known each other extremely well over the past ~16 years. Some of his views are obviously very different than my own, because, well, he's a different person. Okay, enough about this guy.

He was one of the "guild" backers with me that never started playing, and while discussing the recent "Events" with him regarding the status of the game, he was not too surprised. He said, "Honestly, when I put money down for this game, I wasn't expecting to see a finished product for 4-5 years. Sounds like that's probably going to be the case now, so whatever."

This comment really made me think deeply about the development timeline of this game. I really do believe that GW was too "rushed" to deliver the product. They were too rushed to bring the game out of Alpha into EE at the end of 2014, which was [in my opinion] the first critical mistake. They were too rushed to get an "MVP" ready for Q1/Q2 of 2016. And in doing so, it seems they skipped a few crucial "MVP" elements (like all the things mentioned in this thread and my previous post(s) here) before [they had to begin] charging subscription fees.

So, as my friend was basically saying, if the game takes another few years to be completed, it now won't be much of a surprise, and honestly, it might be good for the game if it does take that long.

Anyone else agree that there's no longer any need to rush?

I agree with you, but who in their right mind is going to subscribe to a game that can shut its servers at any moment?

At the end of this month virtually all that will be left are players with prepaid accounts. GW already has the money from those accounts. What I believe they should consider is shutting down the live server, until January. Continue fixing, polishing and adding minor elements. Allow Alpa players access only to the test server.

Separation makes the heart grow fonder. Some players will return just to be surprised by what they see. New players will be curious. Let it run for a few weeks or even months, then shut it down again. Open up again in June 2016 as a summer alpha….. Which reminds me…. Declare the game in alpha or at most advanced beta phase.

At each stage, advertise it as giving players a fresh and new look at the game's progress.

Naw. Not unless they have to. Why put the last three employees out of work before you absolutely have no choice. Those employees don't deserve such treatment. They can't work on it at all in that scenario, unless employees start voluntary work. If Lisa finds investors, she will need someone (no idea how important) to be a liaison to GW's code style.

For the sake of discussion, is there precedent of an MMO starting rough, closing for a period, and reopening later to success?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Edam
Bringslite
For the sake of discussion, is there precedent of an MMO starting rough, closing for a period, and reopening later to success?

Final Fantasy XIV

But under quite different circumstances to PFO.
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Bringslite
For the sake of discussion, is there precedent of an MMO starting rough, closing for a period, and reopening later to success?

Just about every MMO that shifted to F2P model did. PFO is somewhat unique in that it charged a subscription for alpha, so that changes the potential comparisons.

Age of Conan, fired its Lead Developer and went on to make a better product.

Darkfall UW, has made dramatic changes and has had a recent resurgence.

I'm sure there are others that I'm unfamiliar with.

Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Bringslite
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Bringslite
For the sake of discussion, is there precedent of an MMO starting rough, closing for a period, and reopening later to success?

Just about every MMO that shifted to F2P model did. PFO is somewhat unique in that it charged a subscription for alpha, so that changes the potential comparisons.

Age of Conan, fired its Lead Developer and went on to make a better product.

Darkfall UW, has made dramatic changes and has had a recent resurgence.

I'm sure there are others that I'm unfamiliar with.

Did any of those actually shut down? Like as in: No one can log in except Devs and there is not a monthly sub? Or did they limp along with a small loyal base and start a comeback?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Gloreindl
Kitsune
It's always interesting to discuss this game with my closest friend - similar state of mind in a lot of areas, an IT Tech like myself, both into PC gaming, etc. etc - and we've known each other extremely well over the past ~16 years. Some of his views are obviously very different than my own, because, well, he's a different person. Okay, enough about this guy.

He was one of the "guild" backers with me that never started playing, and while discussing the recent "Events" with him regarding the status of the game, he was not too surprised. He said, "Honestly, when I put money down for this game, I wasn't expecting to see a finished product for 4-5 years. Sounds like that's probably going to be the case now, so whatever."

This comment really made me think deeply about the development timeline of this game. I really do believe that GW was too "rushed" to deliver the product. They were too rushed to bring the game out of Alpha into EE at the end of 2014, which was [in my opinion] the first critical mistake. They were too rushed to get an "MVP" ready for Q1/Q2 of 2016. And in doing so, it seems they skipped a few crucial "MVP" elements (like all the things mentioned in this thread and my previous post(s) here) before [they had to begin] charging subscription fees.

So, as my friend was basically saying, if the game takes another few years to be completed, it now won't be much of a surprise, and honestly, it might be good for the game if it does take that long.

Anyone else agree that there's no longer any need to rush?

I agree with your friend. Frankly, no MMO needs to rush, but they do, and that is why there have been so many horrific MMO launches (not to mention PC game launches - Total War: Rome 2 anyone?). Slow the pace down, even with a new publisher, and get it right. Timelines are artificial constructs, and thus, are subject to change. Paizo and GW have gotten a second chance here. I hope Lisa sees that and decides to take full advantage of it and use the next few years to polish this game up and add in the features the majority of people want. Personally, I think she will: Lisa is intelligent, and her keep side chats show a dedication to making sure the Pathfinder name isn't sullied. On the table top side of things I have witnessed the game designers/writers take ideas from those of us that post in those forums on Paizo's website, so why not here? And one thing I love is that they don't let a vocal minority dictate what gets done, but rather put the community first and allow a lot of discussion to take place. This is why I so love Paizo.
Wizard/Cleric; Chosen of Nethys and Yuelral. Magic is Life.
 
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