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Requirements for MVP

Duffy Swiftshadow
The water problem is not an easy thing to fix, they've talked about it several times.
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Duffy Swiftshadow
The water problem is not an easy thing to fix, they've talked about it several times.

It is not a matter of ease, it is a matter of perception. I have never seen a video game, beyond its first weeks of alpha, who's game environment was unfinished.

To say this is a difficult problem to fix brings into question the ability to do more complex systems. On top of that, the name issue of the setting (The River Kingdoms) creates a level of absurdity, and it is laughably pathetic.

Then there is the issue of timing. The game has been in Early Access for 9 months, and this has been a known issue going back to Alpha. Over a year, and something as simple as an environment feature that is BASIC is inexcusable.

Those graphical assets could have been and should have been bought. Instead the goal of Pathfinder Online seems to have been to prove how cheaply a game could be produced, rather than producing a quality game.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Duffy Swiftshadow
The water problem is not an easy thing to fix, they've talked about it several times.

It is not a matter of ease, it is a matter of perception. I have never seen a video game, beyond its first weeks of alpha, who's game environment was unfinished.

To say this is a difficult problem to fix brings into question the ability to do more complex systems. On top of that, the name issue of the setting (The River Kingdoms) creates a level of absurdity, and it is laughably pathetic.

Then there is the issue of timing. The game has been in Early Access for 9 months, and this has been a known issue going back to Alpha. Over a year, and something as simple as an environment feature that is BASIC is inexcusable.

Those graphical assets could have been and should have been bought. Instead the goal of Pathfinder Online seems to have been to prove how cheaply a game could be produced, rather than producing a quality game.
I don't understand your required endgame, Bludd. Are you asking them to give up?
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Duffy Swiftshadow
The water problem is not an easy thing to fix, they've talked about it several times.

It is not a matter of ease, it is a matter of perception. I have never seen a video game, beyond its first weeks of alpha, who's game environment was unfinished.

To say this is a difficult problem to fix brings into question the ability to do more complex systems. On top of that, the name issue of the setting (The River Kingdoms) creates a level of absurdity, and it is laughably pathetic.

Then there is the issue of timing. The game has been in Early Access for 9 months, and this has been a known issue going back to Alpha. Over a year, and something as simple as an environment feature that is BASIC is inexcusable.

Those graphical assets could have been and should have been bought. Instead the goal of Pathfinder Online seems to have been to prove how cheaply a game could be produced, rather than producing a quality game.
I don't understand your required endgame, Bludd. Are you asking them to give up?

No, what I'm asking them to do is focus on New Player Experience, before every thing else. I"m asking for them get the stuff done, that the new player sees immediately.

I and a few of my guild members (as well as the leaders of other guilds) were granted access into the second week of Alpha in Pirates of the Burning Sea. In that second week of Alpha, we were struck by the fact that the ships were sailing on a grid, there was no water yet…. We collectively said, "WTF, you're going to fix that right??" With in a week we not only had water, but the water effects were what they launched with 2 1/2 years later.

The point is, you can't allow such an obvious example of "unfinishedness" to remain there and slap potential customers in the eyes with it.

I'm not concerned about new systems for veteran players to tool around with as part of end game. None of that is meaningful when they shut the servers down because no new players decide to subscribe.

Are they really going to add settlement taxes in, for the 14 people still playing the game? (yes I know I exaggerate, maybe it is 200 but I won't believe one above that).

@ All,

Take yourself out of your own perspective and put yourself in the shoes of a trial account player. What do they DEMAND to see as a basic feature in a game, before they plop down $15.00?

Telling them this is a work in progress….. FAILED!!!

Saying, that Crowdforging is something special….. FAILED!!!

Reset the focus to the first hour of the game, and make that experience exceptional, or at the very least reasonably expected.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Duffy Swiftshadow
@Bludd

Your arguments are all False Equivalences, the problems with water is entirely unrelated to their ability to code say factions.

Generally either a task can be 'hard' which means the solution is not readily known and has potential integration issues depending on the complexity or a task can be trivial which means the solution is readily known and should have minimal integration issues. Time to complete either of these sort of tasks is a completely separate variable, just because it's trivial doesn't mean it isn't time consuming and just because it's hard doesn't mean it will take a long time.

Usually hard has a loose unknown time, you may be able to ballpark it based on things you've previously done, but sometimes you just take a shot in the dark. It depends on how unique it is. Other times you mostly know what needs to be done but it requires building upon concepts instead of just repeating well known ones.

Trivial is usually not a big deal unless it's time consuming. As a random example it might be trivial to place rock outcroppings across the map, but it's time consuming to make do it while making sure you don't do something that looks stupid or creates geometry issues.

Tasks can of course be somewhere between these two extremes.

As to the topic at hand is a month+ of time placing water that potentially causes performance issues for awhile worth not doing something else that creates actual game-play? Is pretty water that doesn't do anything but require optimization maintenance important in the middle of this work in progress?

When it comes to this sort of thing what you think is basic and simple is surprisingly often not and vice-versa. If it's trivial and quick then it would be done, so what you're statements are really saying is either they are too lazy or too incompetent to complete the task.

Get over your obsession with trying to sell the game as a complete product, it just isn't, and if it lost people that sucks, but too bad. As I keep finding myself repeating, it is what it is, deal with it or quit whining already (or read/listen to more of what the devs have been saying). If you are surprised that the bootstrap game doesn't have visual fluff water this game will probably not please you for another few years.
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
My "obsession of trying to sell the game as a complete product"! How on Earth do you get to that conclusion? PFO is the most incomplete, 9 month old product, I've ever seen. It has also followed tge least coherent develpment map I've ever seen.

You can not sell a game where the New Player Experience is shit. There isn't anyone, anywhere who does not feel that way, as soon as they set foot into the game.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
Andas
Duffy Swiftshadow
@Bludd

Your arguments are all False Equivalences, the problems with water is entirely unrelated to their ability to code say factions.

Generally either a task can be 'hard' which means the solution is not readily known and has potential integration issues depending on the complexity or a task can be trivial which means the solution is readily known and should have minimal integration issues. Time to complete either of these sort of tasks is a completely separate variable, just because it's trivial doesn't mean it isn't time consuming and just because it's hard doesn't mean it will take a long time.

Usually hard has a loose unknown time, you may be able to ballpark it based on things you've previously done, but sometimes you just take a shot in the dark. It depends on how unique it is. Other times you mostly know what needs to be done but it requires building upon concepts instead of just repeating well known ones.

Trivial is usually not a big deal unless it's time consuming. As a random example it might be trivial to place rock outcroppings across the map, but it's time consuming to make do it while making sure you don't do something that looks stupid or creates geometry issues.

Tasks can of course be somewhere between these two extremes.

As to the topic at hand is a month+ of time placing water that potentially causes performance issues for awhile worth not doing something else that creates actual game-play? Is pretty water that doesn't do anything but require optimization maintenance important in the middle of this work in progress?

When it comes to this sort of thing what you think is basic and simple is surprisingly often not and vice-versa. If it's trivial and quick then it would be done, so what you're statements are really saying is either they are too lazy or too incompetent to complete the task.

Get over your obsession with trying to sell the game as a complete product, it just isn't, and if it lost people that sucks, but too bad. As I keep finding myself repeating, it is what it is, deal with it or quit whining already (or read/listen to more of what the devs have been saying). If you are surprised that the bootstrap game doesn't have visual fluff water this game will probably not please you for another few years.

I don't know Duffy - he has a point and this thread is on what people think a MVP should be. It is a perfectly valid opinion to think that they should focus on a new player experience. Odds are those that are still remaining subs would wait a few months if they could see progress being made. Of course progress would have to be made in a few months…

On the other hand you don't want the people that are keeping the lights on to walk away. It is going to be tough going with only 3 employees working on the game.

I doubt PFO will survive.

No one wants to hear my MVP as I am not the target audience (even though I backed the second Kickstarter).
Edam
The target audience changed.

As far as the new player experience goes - the simplest cheapest immediate fix would be to ask players to contribute content towards new player quests and tutorials with very clear proviso that there is no guarantee any of it will be used at all and that the rights to such content vest in GW and can be changed/modified/bastardised as GW see fit.
Tyncale
Completely agreeing with Bludd here. Explaining the fact that it may be hard to implement water is irrelevant imo. The psychology involved with hooking players into a game, and getting better retention does not answer to (technical) explanations of why it is hard to implement this or that fun little system.

Apparently, even Early Adapters(Enrollers) are picky in what they choose.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon
Edam
The target audience changed.

As far as the new player experience goes - the simplest cheapest immediate fix would be to ask players to contribute content towards new player quests and tutorials with very clear proviso that there is no guarantee any of it will be used at all and that the rights to such content vest in GW and can be changed/modified/bastardised as GW see fit.

What is the target audience now?

I don't understand your proposal. What content are veteren players contributing? As far as tutorials go, that is the role of the NPE game mechanics, not the player base. Besides, you try to get a response in general lately? Not many people there, and with the chat tabs not having the flash feature, it's hard to tell if anyone did respond if you switched channels.
Aragon (CN) a settlement founded on the principles of the River Freedoms: Say What You Will; Oath Breakers Die; Walk Any Road, Float Any River; Courts are for Kings; Slavery is an Abomination; Have What You Hold.

Settlement Focus: Fighter and Rogue Training
Game Play: Escalations / Refining / Crafting / Defensive PVP
 
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