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|Quijenoth Starkiller 09.29.2015 05:25|
Some interesting discussions but none (except Caldeathe's first suggestion) actually solve the problem - they just add more content to the game in an attempt to mask the problem.
The issue with Caldeathes idea, although it has definite merit to explore more, is that it turns logged off crafting alts into AFK crafting alts. Risk of death or no, there's just no risk if you aren't feuded.
Focusing on Crafting (since that’s what people have been suggesting so far)…
One of the problems may be in the construction process.
Right now its RAW -> Refined -> Finished and perhaps that's too simplistic.
What if they added more steps? RAW -> Refined -> Worked -> / Framework -> Construction -> Finished. The idea behind this is to make the process more involved without the need to adjust the overall crafting times.
RAW: This is the gatherers step normally, collecting the raw materials from the wilderness to bring back to be refined.
Refining: This process has one main purpose, the produce transportable resources. The idea is to remove the inferior material to make something easy to transport. The process should be relatively quick (20-40 seconds), and simply add a refined prefix to the current material. So silver ore becomes refined silver ore. It should not be done in bulk. You actually have to refine all the materials individually. The process should have a progress bar that you must be online for. This would also make searching the AH easier since 4 material types become 1 refined material type.
How this needs to manipulate the game…
Firstly gathered resources need to be heavier, a lot heavier! Like 5 times heavier! This will restrict gatherers to local areas more. Secondly the process requires a refiner skill. So a miner is going to have to level smiting if he wants to refine his materials into a transportable resource. Having access to a mining camp with a smith will speed this process up.
Plants/Essences are awkward because they are so much lighter. My solution to this is simply multiply the quantities needed. Maybe by a factor of 10 per refine so 10 otherworldly esoteric essence is required for 1 refined esoteric essence. The effect should result in longer gathering in the field and more time at the refiner to offset the frequent trips a miner suffers.
The result should see gatherers remaining close to home while the refiners are traveling to towns to buy up the non-refined ore, refining it and then transporting it back to their town. Obviously you could have miners who are also smelters who would refine the materials and bring them home or operate as a trader.
There also needs to be a way for players to set up remote camps – temporary structures they can use to work a specific hex. By doing this you, provide a target for PVPers. They can search hexes for the camps and either stalk the hex or wait in ambush for the gatherer to return. Gathers who cannot refine will likely store items in a vault at the camp, then head to town to buy a mule to return to collect their spoils. Those that can refine themselves will likely buy the more advanced camps, use local settlement holdings or even offer the refining as part of the small holdings.
Worked: is the process of producing what is currently in-game but not produce the quantities we are seeing in-game right now. If you want 30 silver bars you need to actually make 30 silver bars. The numbers in game don't need to be adjusted though, simply change the refining process to a deposit system. You select what you want to produce and input the required items. Times don’t need to be long either since we have already added a time sink with the refining step above.
One other thing about working materials…
It’s at this point that the refined goods become difficult to transport again. My suggestion is to tie worked goods in with buy orders. Refiners should only need to produce them if they have the buy orders to full fill a crafters requests. This is done by placing worked goods into a special vault for the player. This vault is deposit only but is accessible via the auction house where they can be sold via buy orders. Once in the hands of a craftsman they can be taken to a bank and deposited. This means that refiners will generally only work goods at home.
Crafters will likely rely on home refiners or will travel with a mule to collect buy orders to return home with worked materials. Alternatively anyone (even the refiner) could buy worked goods to transport elsewhere to sell but would then be taxed for doing so thus resulting in a slight markup and a captured market for goods locally produced.
FRAMEWORK: Framework mimics the same step as raw materials for crafters, a usable resource that must be collected before you can make the product.
Framework (think of it as a blueprint or template of the finished product) would require the crafter to find the materials needed to build the item. This could be quite simple in principle, paper/cloth worksheets/wood frames/smelting moulds. Each craft has a simple recipe that requires minimal materials that can be produced by crafters only.
The result would yield a huge amount of crafting recipes without the need to create new and unique materials.
For example: right now we have pot steel plate. By adding frameworks (pot steel plate smelting moulds) you could add multiple prefix/suffixes to that finished product; race, gender, style, or faction.
Human female osirian hellknight pot steel plate
Elven male osirian hellknight pot steel plate
Elven female osirian hellknight pot steel plate…
For now it’s just text but in the future art could be added to identify the different styles. It also means your production will actually reflect the type of pot steel plate you produce. Forgeholm will likely produce more Dwarf pot steel plate for example. The stats and materials never change so time wise its very light.
The process itself would be quite quick as crafters will likely want to have a huge stock of frameworks to work from. Each one is consumed in the process but has no bearing on the + of the item.
Construction: This is the meat of the crafting process. It needs to be time consuming but it also needs to be engaging. TBH this is where I am stuck on ideas.
Minigames come to mind, the idea of combining the items together to get a finished product with chances of failure but this really is a huge undertaking for this game. At the very least there should be a process for each worked material used in the process. So an item that uses 9 silver bars will require 9 separate processes to complete the construction.
The construction stage should fall into the deposit only vault like the worked resources. That way sales remain local unless you pay to release them to take elsewhere. Construction level gear needs to be finished before it can be worn which also offers a nice secondary step if timed durability is an issue. You simply keep spare suits in construction stage and finish them before wearing them.
Finished: Here’s the magic in this process – customizing your order! Constructing a suit only goes so far but what about customizing it to the buyer’s needs! Obviously this is another complex step but it’s where I feel this game can really shine. Crafters should be able to add cosmetic elements to armor both visually and with text. Personal seals, so your brand is marked on the items you make (text line in the description), coat of arms on chest plates (visual representation) and such and so-forth. The process will take some time to work (and may also require additional materials in the finished process).
This step can be entirely optional, Sort of. Right now construction is the finished product and if you omit all of the customization you end up with an off the shelf product. Even if there is no customization the process must still be completed but with minimal time and no extra resources. Time wise, finishing off a suit shouldn’t take too long. Perhaps a couple minutes at most.
Buy orders for finished items could allow for players to “request” specific customization. For example a crafter who has 3 suits of pot plate +3 made could check the Auction house and see 2 buy orders for pot plate +3, 1 requires a stag head emblem on the chest piece for customization so all the crafter does is apply the stag head emblem to 1 of his armor’s before completing that buy order! The other buy order has no customization so he simply finishes it before filing the buy order.
They could add future notes to buy orders where crafters could leave a message to a prospective buyer offering special customization or even discounts. It’s really at this point where the crafter needs to interact with his potential buyers, building a rapport and client base.
Finished items could also enable repairs, giving birth to a more complex durability system.
Finished could also be the point where enchantment comes into play. Requesting an enchanted suit of armor is far more interesting a proposition for a wizard crafter over a fighter crafter and as a two stage process, wizards who cannot craft may rather buy pre-constructed armors to enchant instead of doing the whole process themselves.
|Takasi 09.29.2015 07:37|
Quijenoth let's look at the perceived problems you have with the game that these solutions are trying to solve:
Raw. No changes.
Refined. The solution here is to make gathered resources weigh more and/or need to be taken in high quantity so they must stay in a given hex for a longer period of time before bringing the materials back to town. Is this so gatherers are easier targets, because right now you think gatherers should be easier to assassinate? And you think there are too many resources in the game?
You say it will make it easier to find "raw" mats in the AH because there won't be four layers of degradation. Couldn't this be solved in the AH today with filtering/search?
This is also a time sink because it spreads the start to finish over more layers, because there are too many goods on the market today?
Worked. Why do refiners need to be encouraged to only work at home and only to deposit for buy orders? Is there a problem with refiners running around the map today?
Framework. Is the market flooded with items today? We've had people complaining they can't find enough priest's scale in the AH's, do they need to also look for an elven female version?
Construction. This is where your proposal turns into a black box. What is the mini game? You want there to be failures in crafting because right now there is no risk. If +4 or +5 became needed for enchanting, wouldn't producing anything less be considered a failure? Sometimes in a strategy game there needs to be something that happens automatically; there are no die rolls in chess.
Finished. This was talked about for Tier 3 at Paizocon, but at the moment it sounds like GW is struggling to even mimic the basics from Tier 1 and 2 into Tier 3. Even Tier 2 does not have a differentiation between Oak and Steel Splint and General's Banded.
|Yrme 09.29.2015 07:58|
I guess I don't understand what you're actually looking for, then. In the OP you had concern with the one-click style gathering event. You said it needed to be replaced with some form of interactive duration event.
The answer to that is simple: gushers. In the early blogs, the devs explained that gushers would be gathering events that would require groups of gatherers to gather from a camp while spawning monsters attempted to destroy the camp. To be more successful, more gatherers would be needed, as well as adventurers fighting the defense. That meets your requirements: interactive (because characters have to operate the gathering camp and intercept attacking monsters) and duration (because the gusher continues until the monsters are successful or the characters clear the node of all resources).
Gushers were expected to be our major source of raw materials. Iirc, we were told in early EE (or Alpha) that normal gathering would provide higher gains until gushers could be implemented.
At some point, crowdforging suggestions seem to be like fan fiction. Some good, some bad, some repetitious and predictable. But maybe there are some gems out there.
|tribuzio 09.29.2015 09:28|
You can like gathering/crafting minigames, plenty of players have subscribed the kickstarter because PFO don't have them. Add those and the game will lose my subscriptions.
Same reply as above. You want to incentive people that can play for several hours every day, in a game that was promoted as causal friendly. You will lose a lot of subscriptions in the hope of attracting some from people from a different demographic.
|Caldeathe Baequiannia 09.29.2015 09:59|
tribuzioCasual friendly doesn't necessarily mean it can't have any advantages to people who are not casual. The casual crafter is not losing anything they have. A casual gatherer is not going to gather as much as a gatherer who logs in for several hours a day. A casual mob-hunter is not going to find as much loot as one who logs in for several hours a day. I don't see that a casual crafter crafting less than one who logs in for several hours a day is any different? The crafter can still make a suit of armour in 24 hours. The crafter who spends a couple of hours compulsively checking his queue to make sure it is optimized receives a reward in a shortening of that time in exactly the same way the hunters and gatherers receive more loot and materials. It balances the shorter crafting times that the devs intended with the desire of players that crafters have value and something to do.Caldeathe BaequianniaSame reply as above. You want to incentive people that can play for several hours every day, in a game that was promoted as causal friendly. You will lose a lot of subscriptions in the hope of attracting some from people from a different demographic.
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|Decius 09.29.2015 11:02|
Crafting, gathering, and adventuring aren't equivalent and we shouldn't try to force them to be.
They are all important, but different and inherently incomparable.
|Quijenoth Starkiller 09.29.2015 12:27|
Takasi please read the OP disclaimer - All I'm hearing from you is whats going on now or GW dont have the resources. that's no what this post is about.
Now is currently the problem there are not enough people playing (even those subbing are not playing right now). look aback 2 months and AHs where flooded with items - take a look at zomozs 1 platium post - hes got bags of arcane staffs in his inventory!
and yes gatherers need to be a target not carebeared. - there the only really viable PVP right now because they have loot worth hunting - gathering is a lonely role but it shouldn't be - hiring people to defend you while you gather should be a thing. Being a 100% gatherer should be hard and risky, after all your going into hostile territory with no way to defend yourself? Thats pretty dumb if you ask me. This is an MMO so interact!!!!
Then settlements are better developed harvesting in your own hexes controlled hexes will be safer because you will have the guards patrolling. play smart and dont look like a gatherer and you will likely live longer too.
As for traveling yes it is a problem. we are trying to build comunities of people here yet everyone simply travels to KB to buy and sell - Theres no incentive to travel to Talonguard to buy. make the world feel smaller and suddenly there is a need for trade and commerce.
Construction is where again this post is looking for feedback - lets not just shoot down the problems, lets work together to come up with solutions to making the game more enjoyable. and by minigames I'm talking more similarly to final fantasy or EQ2 crafting mechanics.
And yes I apologize - gushers are much needed in this game, I missed that.
|Quijenoth Starkiller 09.29.2015 12:30|
tribuzioDont add them and lose my subs - whose subs are more important? neither IMHO. I did the kickstarter just like you and personally I really enjoy EQ2s crafting minigame system over what we have in PFO right now. But as has been said before - you cant please everyone all the time. thats especially true in MMOs.Quijenoth
|tribuzio 09.29.2015 13:51|
Quijenoth StarkillerYou are the one that want to change the rules, so you are the one that should come with a better reason than "because I like minigames".tribuzioDont add them and lose my subs - whose subs are more important? neither IMHO. I did the kickstarter just like you and personally I really enjoy EQ2s crafting minigame system over what we have in PFO right now. But as has been said before - you cant please everyone all the time. thats especially true in MMOs.Quijenoth
|Bringslite 09.29.2015 17:17|
If GW feels that it is important enough, they will add mini games. If they do, they could make them voluntary. If they add any type of advantage to crafting, some will feel like they are mandatory.
GW can't win. I guess it comes down to who has the most accounts unless something further down the line makes one of you want to quit then too. That is the way to handle this, right?
Virtute et Armis