Cookies Disclaimer

I agree Our site saves small pieces of text information (cookies) on your device in order to authenticate logins, deliver better content and provide statistical analysis. You can adjust your browser settings to prevent our site from using cookies, but doing so will prevent some aspects of the site from functioning properly.

Pathfinder Online will be ending operations on November 28, 2021. For more details please visit our FAQ.

Clerics at T3

Takasi
Baron how does that relate to the OP? Instead of making all progression and crafting homogenous they should flesh out other factors and systems first. Yes, these are tired and old Topics BL.
Bringslite
I may be mistaken (this was a cleric troubles thread?) but since you are off topic, weren't rogues supposed to wind up with high fast spike damage and great root/paralyze/stun or evades? Did they?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Takasi
Duffy read gamism vs narrativism vs simulationism. Unbalanced systems are a viable goal depending on your personal preferences.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Bringslite
I may be mistaken (this was a cleric troubles thread?) but since you are off topic, weren't rogues supposed to wind up with high fast spike damage and great root/paralyze/stun or evades? Did they?

Technically on topic, just got a little lost in examples and explanations.

The jist is Clerics get very different gating than everyone else due to their somewhat hodgepodge mix of aspects. Due to this they have to spend more XP to reach the same level as the other roles.

Some of us think this is an imbalance whereas others disagree. We got a bit sidetracked into what imbalanced means and how important it is or is not for PFO.

Anyways, as to Rogues, somewhat. Their better but they still have too much build up time and reliance on mediocre DoTs. In PvE groups they aren't too bad since they can pound out debuffs without too much of a problem if they aren't being focused by the mobs and fights take long enough to get the benefits.
Baron Malthius
Yeah it became more of a philosophical discussion on our underlying conceptions behind all of this.

Speaking of which…

@Takasi

I will say this one more time:

NOBODY IS ASKING FOR HOMOGENIZATION! THE POINT WAS SIMPLY TO HAVE DEDICATED ROLES THAT ARE UNIQUE TO THAT CLASS/SKILLSET BUT ARE ALSO WORTH TAKING FOR THE PRICE YOU PAY FOR THEM!
Takasi
Baron the OP is asking for homogenized advancement.
Bringslite
Not really qualified to comment here, but I have started a cleric and I did stay at a Cathedral of Justice Inn last night. In other words: A fairly shallow end person commenting on deep end subjects.

There are more confusing things concerning feats and gates than the OP's list. We all know this. Bob is planning to look into them but he also has to look at other features and try to figure out if any apparent shortfalls are covered by advantages elsewhere.

Just an opinion: A role that has it's own major highway of melee attacks and features (at base) should expect to have to struggle to work outside of normal progression. I know that Clerics are pretty popular as more than buff machines and heal bots in TT. I know that PFRPG offers literally hundreds of specialist/prestige/mix roles. Some of these PFO feat things look like great foundation feats for Paladins, barbarians, Mystic Theurges, etc…

If you make all of these weird (out of norm) gate req feats easy for any current role, where will that leave these OTHER future roles that we hope to see? Will there have to be whole new redundant sets of feats with similar uses, just different names?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Duffy Swiftshadow
Homogenized advancement with balanced roles should be the desired end state in a competitive game. If it's not you end up with flavor of the month or other roles falling to the wayside end-game because a particular one is just so much better. Cleric costing 2x as much to advance is just as bad as Cleric being 2x better when it gets to the cap.

As to new classes, it's not that big a deal. Traditionally classes are based around two of the six stats. In TT this breaks down a bit as stats also have some general benefits which causes them to be generally desirable even if they aren't the primaries and a few synergize with even 3 stats very well. PFO side steps that problem very cleanly.

So given six stats there are what 15 possible two stat pairings? Move to 3 stat pairings and you get 20 possible combos. That's 15 to 20 classes. But add in that Features, Armor, and Expendables are unique to each role and you can make more permutations but still rely on the same stats. While cross classing to something with similar stats is easier, your still building up a 2nd class and that costing more is fine. Cross classing to something with completely different stats is even more expensive, again that's fine. But within a single base class having spend more XP level than other roles is bad.

It's not about 'easy' or 'hard' as long as everyone has the same comparably difficult progression. If Cleric is not inherently superior to fighter why does it take more to level it? If it is inherently superior why bother with Fighters? Those are both possible imbalances.
Bringslite
Is a cleric better? If a cleric didn't have the option for any melee weapon feats (with or without wis gates) would they still be pretty tuff?

My brand new cleric (rank 10) has me kicking myself for not starting on day 1 with him. He hasn't even looked at a single Cleric weapon feat listed at the trainer.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Takasi
I disagree with you Duffy. There's no shoulds, only wants.

I want a game where there are varying degrees of progressions.

Clerics that use Sanctified attacks should be something special for a character who has Wis 20 AND Str 20.

They could also offer Arcanist attacks for someone who has Dex 20 and Int 20, or Raging attacks for Str 20 and Con 20, etc. Chameleon only requires Dex 20, it's one of the easier armor feats in the game but it's also one of the weakest.

There are many things they could do with future systems. This is the system they designed though. We've had it for a year now. Asking for these changes as "minor tweaks" to the game is fine, but I am going to speak out against them. I would rather see time devoted to adding other systems first or tweaking the combat on things like sanctified attacks to make them more powerful if people think they aren't worth the effort. But be open to the idea of varying rewards for varying effort.

The notion that all rewards should require equal effort is a bad one to me. It's bland, boring, streamlined and simplistic. Anyone who wants to change the status quo please try to understand why it is the way it is first, and maybe present it as a question what their design intent is first.
 
You must be logged into an enrolled account to post