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Clerics at T3

Baron Malthius
I'm REALLY starting to lose my patience here…

Yes I get the whole having two stat gates argument and it is not necessarily a bad thing for what you get out of the fighter cleric…

But…

All your supporting arguments make no sense. If you have armor feats that are meant for a specific set of skills, and weapon feats meant for a specific set of skills, and those skills are for a specific class that you can only get as part of that class, that I think is a core feature. Sanctified attacks cannot be gained as a straight up fighter, you HAVE to go into cleric to do it. Why is this so difficult to understand? You don't get access to them if you don't have the appropriate fighter weapon proficiencies but you don't get em at all unless you take all the prerequisite DIVINE feats and proficiencies too. Sanctified attacks are a Cleric, not a fighter feature and that is why you get them at the Cleric trainers, not the fighter ones. Otherwise, if you are a Crusader without the Sanctified cleric feats there is no point of being a crusader. Frankly, this goes back to what I said earlier about both a class being gimped at the role it is supposed to be filling AND having that same role being better filled by another class. A straight up fighter is better in almost every respect than a Crusader if the Crusader does not have the sanctified attacks. Why is this so difficult to understand?

For Clerics, each of the three Armor feats corresponds to one of their roles. The Healer feat is for Healing obviously, Evangelist is for offensive divine spellcasting, and the Crusader is for divine melee combat. For the third one, the sanctified attacks ARE a core feature of that divine melee combat role. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Also, before you continue on your veiled accusation of power gaming/munchkining (is that a word?) that was implied in that first sentence, if I was truly going for a power game build I would not have chosen a light mace (probably would have gone sanctified longsword instead). Sometimes I like to build characters for the fun of it and this happened to be one of them. I have a rogue and wizard as well.
Seraph
Takasi
Nobody is entitled to a cleric having sanctified attacks. It is not a core feature of a "cleric" role.

I believe it is a core feature. Being a cleric means you pick a deity, train in that deity's domains, and get access to their attacks (which have domain requirements). It's as much of a core cleric feature as anything, it's just not required since you can use the focus (exclusively). You get all sorts of different clerics out there that are defined by their deity's weapon, like the whole Desna starslinger crowd. They're going to hit the same problem with Dexterity as I'm hitting with Strength.

Takasi
What the OP is asking for is to have both T3 weapons and a T3 focus using only one stat to boost. No other role gets to do that.

Sure they do. Wizards can use Int for wands and staffs. Rogues can use Dex for knives and bows. Strength covers a ton of weapons. The only thing a Cleric can do with Wisdom is a focus. A fighter can access all of its core features – everything with a fighter role level requirement – with strength or dex, and they only need to pick one. Same goes for wizards and rogues, with their respective attributes. Clerics are the only ones like this, and they're not "more powerful" or anything to justify it. Power level isn't an appropriate justification anyway, since XP is infinite and you don't want the eventual T3 cleric to be straight up more powerful than a T3 fighter.

The advancement simply isn't symmetrical for otherwise balanced classes. It's an extra cost with no payoff.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Baron Malthius
Takasi
I'm going to be blunt now: Baron, where are your other posts that qualify that you've given any thought to this topic in the last year of EE?
What kind of ridiculous question is this?

So I have to have been posting on the progress of how I've been building my cleric for the past year now in order to even be qualified to say anything at all? Where are your posts from the past year? Are we going to start going back through all the posts we've ever made and create a log to see who has a higher post count on the topic of cleric balance?

I'm not going to take part in this kind of pissing contest. I've spoken on game balance topics over the months I've been commenting on here, even if they weren't specifically on this topic exactly. If we really wanna get into the game balance discussions I know I've seen a lot less of that from you until recently. I'm not going to waste my time looking through all my posts though because I have better things to do. Besides you can look through my posts yourself I am sure if that really catches your fancy.

So I'll leave you to your own devices if really you wish to continue this ridiculous train of thought but you will be the only one playing this game.
Takasi
@Baron, what is your cleric's Strength score today?

Are you comfortable with Goblinworks, today, making Strength irrelevant to Sanctified attacks?

My preference is to keep the Str gate. If people are unhappy with the end result after spending so much time and energy getting Str 20 and Wis 20 for T3 then why not advocate to increase the power rather than nerfing everyone else who has already spent their xp throughout 2015 upping both Str and Wis?

I have plenty of accounts with unspent xp, so by all means make the game easier for clerics and I'll roll up a new T3 melee Haagen with both T3 melee weapons and a T3 focus.

I just think the idea that you have to make every rank of everything trained of equal power and progression is horrible. It goes against the versatility of already existing features, and is a step backwards in design.

And yes I read and understand what you are saying about the Fighter vs Cleric for sanctified attacks. My point, that you are (and I have no idea why, other than as a personal attack?) failing to see is that at Str 20 and Wis 20 you are effectively purchasing enough to be both effective as a fighter AND a cleric. That's the requirement to use T3 sanctified attacks. You don't think it should be, well great please point me to these arguments when sanctified attacks were first introduced.
Jokken
So very much this:

Takasi
Nobody is entitled to a cleric having sanctified attacks. It is not a core feature of a "cleric" role. Just because you have an armor feature that give a bonus in one thing does not mean that the game should give you everything you need for that one thing at T3 in a stat that favors what you want. The training is an option. It's expensive. It requires becoming a high level fighter AND cleric. And the benefits should be statted to reflect the level of effort needed to obtain it rather than nerfed. What the OP is asking for is to have both T3 weapons and a T3 focus using only one stat to boost. No other role gets to do that.
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Duffy Swiftshadow
Because increasing the power tips Clerics to be better than other classes and thus causes an imbalance in a competitive game. We're saying that you shouldn't be an expert fighter by leveling Cleric, you should be an expert Fighter my leveling Fighter. Arrange the gates thus that one does not inherently grant the other, in case of an overlap you would still have to increase an 'off' stat to a non-trivial level, probably in the mid teens. Not to mention some of their role level requirements. In fact such a change should result in more variance between each role and still keep the XP costs for cross classing uniform per added Stat.

Just because someone didn't bring it up in the past doesn't invalidate what they are saying now, trying to imply it does is a logical fallacy; a version of Appeal to Authority mixed with a hint of Appeal to Tradition? Personally, I originally wasn't planning on playing a Cleric so I didn't pay super close attention to the stat gates until now, I just paid attention to their capabilities so I was aware of what they could do.
Jokken
Baron Malthius
All your supporting arguments make no sense. If you have armor feats that are meant for a specific set of skills, and weapon feats meant for a specific set of skills, and those skills are for a specific class that you can only get as part of that class, that I think is a core feature. Sanctified attacks cannot be gained as a straight up fighter, you HAVE to go into cleric to do it. Why is this so difficult to understand? You don't get access to them if you don't have the appropriate fighter weapon proficiencies but you don't get em at all unless you take all the prerequisite DIVINE feats and proficiencies too. Sanctified attacks are a Cleric, not a fighter feature and that is why you get them at the Cleric trainers, not the fighter ones. Otherwise, if you are a Crusader without the Sanctified cleric feats there is no point of being a crusader. Frankly, this goes back to what I said earlier about both a class being gimped at the role it is supposed to be filling AND having that same role being better filled by another class. A straight up fighter is better in almost every respect than a Crusader if the Crusader does not have the sanctified attacks. Why is this so difficult to understand?.

Actually, Sanctified weapons are a skill specifically created for adventurers multi-classing as Fighter/Clerics. That is why they have pre-req's from both fighter and cleric trainers.

To me this looks like 6 pages of people that don't understand why Goblinworks would develop a armor/domain combo that is designed for dual classed characters. Say what you will, but I like it. I think there should be more of them.
Go West for freedom and adventure! Join the free soil settlers of High Road. Be a positive and constructive force for freedom in the Bulwark Hills. www.coalroad.com/hrc
Seraph
Exactly, Duffy. Change the gates to Wisdom for cleric attacks and Clerics won't build Strength and thus won't become expert Fighters. I don't use any fighter attacks right now anyway, particularly because my strength is about 13.5 and I can afford cleric attacks at level 5 but not fighter ones. This is already the right idea, we just need level 6 attacks (and T3 proficiency) to be discounted in the same fashion.

I don't want to be a fighter, I want to be a cleric, so as long as I stick with cleric things I should be able to do it with wisdom. The only reasons I have levels in fighter right now are (1) MoO: Suffer and (2) I needed some fighter feature feats to get my strength to 13 for level 5 sanctified attacks. And at some point I might ditch MoO: Suffer, at which point I'll be a fighter only for matching strength gates.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Baron Malthius
Certainly not 20, although admitedly I haven't logged in as that Cleric for a long time so there's probably a motherload of unspent XP to use.

I am not saying remove the Str gate entirely, but reduce it since you can get by without T3 fighter attacks and use just the sanctified ones in most cases. Plus, another balancing factor once it ACTUALLY comes out (if it does), is actual alignment requirements. That makes your alignment decisions matter a lot more (also why I went with Azmodeus Light Mace attacks to kind of future proof the cleric being evil and all).

I don't think your assertion should be the case because I think it is a bad idea. You should not need to be T3 in Fighter in order to be T3 Cleric. There should be a Str requirement sure for Crusader if you wanna go that route but it should be the secondary not primary stat. Reduce the Str gate rather than remove it entirely, so you still have a stat gate which would make sense for heavy weapons, but don't have to dip 100% into another class to get a core class feature of another, which doesn't make sense.

Also, I don't get this whole show me the arguments when sanctified attacks were first introduced bit, and why? Because it's not even complete. WE DON'T EVEN HAVE THE ALIGNMENT REQUIREMENT IN YET! You always seem to argue for the system as is when we are in an alpha and discussing a highly incomplete system by the devs own admission regarding cleric domains and sanctified attacks. That and your general resorting to appealing to the status quo falls flat on its face given that again, the game can change AND the current stuff IS NOT WORKING OUT VERY WELL. Just because it is a design does not inherently make it a GOOD design. If I felt it was a good design I wouldn't be saying it isn't a good design.
Seraph
Jokken
Actually, Sanctified weapons are a skill specifically created for adventurers multi-classing as Fighter/Clerics. That is why they have pre-req's from both fighter and cleric trainers.

What do you mean? Sanctified attacks don't have any fighter-specific prereqs. Heavy/Light Melee Attack Bonus don't count, since Rogues and all future weapon classes need them as well. It would be quite possible for me the use the same attacks I have today without any fighter levels, I would just need to get the strength from crafting or something else.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
 
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