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Clerics at T3

Takasi
Duffy, at T3 sanctified attacks require you to train to be a Fighter AND a Cleric. It's expensive.

That's the way it is. As a result you are not just a fighter. You are not just a cleric. You're a name and some xp and some attributes and some training and some gear. That's what you are. You're Baron and Duffy and Haagen and Jokken.

Got hoards of stockpiled armor to reequip yourself with? Well guess what that's an imbalance in a "competitive" game. Able to swap out your crusader feat with guide to do some PvE and gathering on the side? Imbalance to anyone who didn't spend that much. Spent tons of xp to get Fire Mastery so you won't have to use ammunition with your cantrips? Ooops, now you're more powerful than other people who didn't buy that.

You have stats. You can buy stuff if your stats are high enough. Sanctified attacks use strength. They have since they were introduced. Don't think they're worth it? You can ask to make them more powerful, or you don't have to buy them. They were introduced a long time ago and people have already planned out their characters with the rule we were given.

It's ok to make something very expensive in xp and also make it more powerful than something that's cheap. It already exists in the design, despite you claiming it isn't Duffy. I suggest debating how to make sanctified attacks more worthwhile at T3. You already qualify to purchase T3 weapon attacks, which are really nice when synergized with a cleric's personal buffs.

Let the devs comment on it, but I will bet after a year of development this thread is not going to persuade Goblinworks to let us wield T3 sanctified weapon attacks by wisdom alone. You are very much fighting against a current and the dam burst a long time ago. XP has been spent and clerics are pushing both already.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Takasi
What the OP is asking for is to have both T3 weapons and a T3 focus using only one stat to boost. No other role gets to do that.

I missed this before, but both Rogue and Wizard only require 1 stat to use their primary weapon options at max T3. Wizards technically can have either Intelligence or Personality but that's only because those weapons are going to be used by Sorcerers who are going to be primarily Personality based. Fighters can use Bows with the Archer armor, but that is entirely a Dex based switch not a combination, the idea being they would use one of the Dex melee options or both bow types if building an Archer. I would even entertain the idea that Longbow should be either Strength or Dexterity like Wizard weapons.
Jokken
Seraph
What do you mean? Sanctified attacks don't have any fighter-specific prereqs. Heavy/Light Melee Attack Bonus don't count, since Rogues and all future weapon classes need them as well. It would be quite possible for me the use the same attacks I have today without any fighter levels, I would just need to get the strength from crafting or something else.

I won't disagree with you there, but why would you create a melee build with only sanctified attacks? First, when alignment restrictions come in to play you'd only have a maximum of 4 sanctified attacks for any one weapon and alignment. Why would you slot a weapon and only use a couple of attacks on it? Second the vast majority of sanctified attacks either have a low damage factor and apply a buff or cause energy damage. The whole draw of sanctified attacks is that they are powerful when _combined_ with the traditional high physical damage attacks from the Fighter trainer. If I was limited to just sanctified weapon attacks, I'd just use a focus instead.

It's a mulit classed niche build. Those of us currently playing it are advancing slower, but we get greater versatility.
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Takasi
Seraph
What do you mean? Sanctified attacks don't have any fighter-specific prereqs.

Most attacks don't have any role-specific prereqs. Roles are for features and implements and expendables and unique attacks. Any character with Strength can use a Strength based weapon. My wizard uses a bow from time to time; the weapon has nothing to do with the role. Sanctified weapons are both strength and wisdom based. They have been since they were introduced. If there were complaints back then I want to read what the developers said about this. Seriously, I'm not trying to start a pissing contest or belittle anyone's opinion, I just want to know why there was no concern about this until now. Because people are seeing T3 builds and want one for their characters ASAP using their current stats? T3 is not the end all of building an effective character.

You can still be a cleric with low strength and wield a T3 focus and T3 armor and a T2 sanctified weapon. You're not the best at melee but you are still very good.
Takasi
Duffy Swiftshadow
Takasi
What the OP is asking for is to have both T3 weapons and a T3 focus using only one stat to boost. No other role gets to do that.

I missed this before, but both Rogue and Wizard only require 1 stat to use their primary weapon options at max T3. Wizards technically can have either Intelligence or Personality but that's only because those weapons are going to be used by Sorcerers who are going to be primarily Personality based. Fighters can use Bows with the Archer armor, but that is entirely a Dex based switch not a combination, the idea being they would use one of the Dex melee options or both bow types if building an Archer. I would even entertain the idea that Longbow should be either Strength or Dexterity like Wizard weapons.

Duffy you completely misread what I said.

No other role gets to use a T3 weapon and T3 focus using only one stat at 20. Or a MIX of any two. Wizards can't use a T3 wand AND a T3 bow using intelligence. That's my point.

The ONLY primary weapon option for straight wisdom is a focus.
Takasi
Jokken
It's a mulit classed niche build. Those of us currently playing it are advancing slower, but we get greater versatility.

And this, THIS is the fundamental disagreement here. I think it's OK to advance slower and end up with a more potent build later. Some people don't think that should be possible.

If Goblinworks wants to weigh in that would be great. We are really caught up in this issue. Is it OK to offer a more powerful feature if the barrier of entry is higher?
Decius
There's a lot of discussion that assumes that classes exist. What does the discussion look like if we treat the system as not having classes, only prerequisites?
Duffy Swiftshadow
Weapons are intrinsically tied to a primary role(s), they very much gear towards specific attributes or statuses that primarily combine with aspects of certain roles. The easiest way to see this is by what weapons get a version of those unlocked Role Attacks. The weapons aren't hard restricted specifically so you can play with different off type or mixed builds, but that is the potential for extra flexibility, not the required norm.

For your example Bow is not a Wizard weapon, Wand and Staff are, therefore they could use both with just Int.

Same as Rogue light weapons and Shortbow using just Dex.

Same as Fighter and any 2 'heavy' melee weapon using just Str or Archer using Longbow and Light weapons just using Dex.

Clerics are the only class with this mixed stat combination in attacks that are designed to interact primarily with Cleric features. If you discount the favored weapon attacks they only get a single weapon type, the Focus. Which shares similar properties to how Wizard wands/staves are setup; their are different types creating 'different' preferred weapon combos. If you add in favored weapons as 'cleric' favored attacks (since you will be restricted to your deity you only get one type) you suddenly have the same pattern as all the other roles.

Edit: Thread moving fast!

Flexible build options are not a power imbalance because you cannot use them all at the same time, that is one of the key tenets and reasons that this style of XP system is considered fair. It's relatively easy to become 'good' at one 'thing'. Making Sanctified attacks superior to non sanctified attacks is an imbalance and violates that principle.
Baron Malthius
Takasi
No other role gets to use a T3 weapon and T3 focus using only one stat at 20. Or a MIX of any two. Wizards can't use a T3 wand AND a T3 bow using intelligence. That's my point.

I think you misread what Duffy said. He said that Rogues can use Dex for all of their weapons. For Dex as a rogue you can get Shortbow, Rapier, AND Dagger. Aside from the Martial and longbow achievement gates, you can also use Dex for Longbow. That is THREE weapons for one class with ONE stat without multiclassing (four if you take some dip in fighter).

Wizard you can use a wand AND a Staff with just the Int gate So Wizards have TWO weapons with one stat.

Fighters can use ANY of the Heavy Melee weapons with the Str gate alone.

Clerics only get ONE weapon with Wis, the divine focus. That's it.

Now, like I said, I don't think removing the stat gate entirely is a good idea, but reducing it so Str is a secondary stat rather than a primary stat makes perfect sense. That way, if they still want the T3 non sanctified fighter attacks they still have to get the full Str gate of 20 that fighters would, BUT would not have to for the Cleric ones. That to me makes sense. Keeps the barrier to get the super full fighter cleric intact but for someone who wants just some extra sanctified attacks they dont have to pay the full Fighter type requirements. It should require some investment in fighter, but not the FULL T3 investment.

@Decius

Well you do bring up an interesting point given how classes don't quite translate the same as they do from TT. I'm wondering how that would affect this discussion, although maybe I'm not able to put two and two together right now for whatever reason. What did you have in mind?
Takasi
Yes please forget roles and classes.

Just think in terms of Attributes.

Everything raises an attribute or requires an attribute level.

Bow is not a wizard or fighter weapon. It is a Dex weapon. Sanctified weapons are Wisdom AND Strength weapons. The OP is asking to remove Strength. Sorry, thumbs down from me. Your arguments are too little and too late. "Because CLERIC"?

Duffy, please explain your "principle" (and please point and define it somewhere in some past post please, you make it sound very 'official', is it?) as it related to Fire Mastery and Penetrating Strike and Shark. And future feats that can only be trained by particular settlements, or offered for factions.

AGAIN, there's no reason why something that costs more can't be more powerful. Not just versatile, but actually more powerful.

Duffy, explain T1 expendables to me using your principle. I can either spend the XP on T1, or save it until later learn the T2 or even T3 and only slot those 6 on my bar instead. I'm more powerful than someone of equal xp to start with because I saved and spent XP in a different way. How does that fit into your "balance everything per xp progression" mindset?
 
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