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What really happened there?

Midnight
When a fracas starts and the folks (including settlement leaders) from the largest power bloc in the game take your opponent's side on the forums and on the battlefield, it's pretty clear to anyone exactly what's happening.

My friends and I don't have a signed agreement on what happens if a barfight breaks out.

But after watching one or two barfights involving my friends, any observer can accurately predict what will happen the next time.

And it would be just as discouraging to someone who wanted to attack just one of us, as the events above were to AGC.

I'd also argue that above events were MEANT to discourage AGC's attacks.

I'm not saying that's not a valid tactic, but it *is* the kind of thing that helps turn the game into Red vs. Blue.

If I decided I really want to attack player A, but attacking player A gets me attacked by his company, his settlement, his alliance, and his alliance's "friends" all around the map… then I might as well join the blob that's fighting against the blob that protects player A.

And that's how you get Red versus Blue.

I'm not sure there's any solution to Red versus Blue as long as force projection is as easy as it is in this game… especially when I hear some crowdforgers asking for even faster travel or for shrinking the map.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Phyllain
I'm not sure the red vs blue thing would have happend as fast as it did if we hadn't had 2 ish years to snipe at each other on the forums.
Doc
Funny enough, before the OV vs FV+AGC thing went down, AGC was rather adversarial towards Xeilas, we kind of regarded them as a threat and even got into random fights and ganks. We weren't really friendly at all. I was even behind convincing SENSOU to attack Xeilians, and I supplied them with gear in that endeavor.

But once my fears were confirmed that the alpha aristocracy could (and would) just put their foot on the neck of any smaller independent group whenever they felt like it, keeping them permanently under control, I figured we would probably need to work more closely with Xeilias/Golgotha rather than against them if we ever wanted to be able to do anything in game.

I'd also argue that above events were MEANT to discourage AGC's attacks.

We were already beaten, pretty soundly, having been unable to take any towers. We accomplished nothing. I feel like we were mostly defeated by the respawn mechanics, but Ozem's Vigil showed up and beat us in an even fight. I know I was pretty dejected afterward, as were my guildies.

If they had left it at that, probably nothing would have surfaced. I remember saying to Atheory we needed to avoid fights like that because you look bad when you lose. We didn't have the numbers to take their towers, and Atheory seemed pretty uninterested in doing any more tower fights regardless.

But then the taunting by Mbando and others, and then the capturing of all our stuff.

All it did was make me hate all of them. Honestly I still do, I'm a vindictive person, I hold grudges, it's a character flaw. But, maybe now I suppose folks realize they can't discourage certain types of people by doing that kind of punitive shit, it just pisses people off, like it did to me then, and basically strengthened their biggest opponent (Xeilias) by driving what were previously independent players into their fold.

Essentially analagous to USA foreign diplomacy in the Middle East pre-Obama.
Decius
Off-topic: the stable political landscape is three groups, all such that no one can stand up to the other two, and distrusting enough that no pair would trust each other enough to eliminate the third.

On meta: let's keep the personal threats, discussion of prior personal threats, and other deliberate provocation out of a thread about historical interest.
Phyllain
I would have liked to see the NE, NW and SW actually do something besides join in the central vs SE conflict. Guess it all just comes back to not having enough ppl.
Tink says Stab
Drama thread \o/
Tink quivers in sheer euphoria as the dank memes course through his fedora
Doc
Not about numbers from what I could see, they could have easily engaged in some low intensity regionally-centric PvP, they did for like 1 day of EE and then stopped. None of them wanted to start anything, for RP or other reasons, I think that is pretty obvious. Still don't apparently. It's like EVE where everybody just mines all day in HiSec, and the most conflict you get is people arguing about Customs Offices tax rates, until somebody in Null gets bored and decides to invade HiSec and all of HiSec bands together to fight the bad guys.
Bringslite
@ Doc

Well this is good stuff. I don't agree with everything that you assume, but I won't deny that you felt what you felt. That would be silly. It's too late now, but I would like to offer apologies if any smack talk got under your skin in a real bad way. It was meant as good humored banter and to get you a little angry. Angry enough to come back for night three if you wanted. We were feeling a bit cocky. I don't like mean smack talk and I know Mbando is not the kind of guy to want it to hurt anyone more than it's intent to be like rivals bantering. I am sure that I put in a fair bit myself.

From Our point of view, it was the very next PVP window after the attacks the night before. I had no idea if you were going to come back again or WHERE you might strike. I was pretty sure that Freevale would be gathering in markers for more help, or that THEY COULD BE DOING SO. I contacted LOTS of people looking for any willing to rally. First was Forgeholm and they knew that EBA was already planning to hit Aragon that same night (I previously hadn't any idea). The EBA were the only responders outside of Alderwag/Forgeholm/Ozem's. After talking, EBA sent one or two guys up our way to help out but it turned out to not be needed. A little later, we DID go down and grab an Aragon tower.

In any case. The affair set a precedent of Co operation between the EBA and TFH that actually was a limiter for a little while. Later, things shifted and EoX was the biggest kid. Now, until/unless EoX and/or EBA come back, new power blocks are slowly coalescing in different places. Things could… well they will almost certainly develop and happen eventually in other areas. Should be an interesting 2nd year.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bringslite
Doc
Funny enough, before the OV vs FV+AGC thing went down, AGC was rather adversarial towards Xeilas, we kind of regarded them as a threat and even got into random fights and ganks. We weren't really friendly at all. I was even behind convincing SENSOU to attack Xeilians, and I supplied them with gear in that endeavor.

But once my fears were confirmed that the alpha aristocracy could (and would) just put their foot on the neck of any smaller independent group whenever they felt like it, keeping them permanently under control, I figured we would probably need to work more closely with Xeilias/Golgotha rather than against them if we ever wanted to be able to do anything in game.

I'd also argue that above events were MEANT to discourage AGC's attacks.

We were already beaten, pretty soundly, having been unable to take any towers. We accomplished nothing. I feel like we were mostly defeated by the respawn mechanics, but Ozem's Vigil showed up and beat us in an even fight. I know I was pretty dejected afterward, as were my guildies.

If they had left it at that, probably nothing would have surfaced. I remember saying to Atheory we needed to avoid fights like that because you look bad when you lose. We didn't have the numbers to take their towers, and Atheory seemed pretty uninterested in doing any more tower fights regardless.

But then the taunting by Mbando and others, and then the capturing of all our stuff.

All it did was make me hate all of them. Honestly I still do, I'm a vindictive person, I hold grudges, it's a character flaw. But, maybe now I suppose folks realize they can't discourage certain types of people by doing that kind of punitive shit, it just pisses people off, like it did to me then, and basically strengthened their biggest opponent (Xeilias) by driving what were previously independent players into their fold.

Essentially analagous to USA foreign diplomacy in the Middle East pre-Obama.

You're still pretty mad. What for really, I can read here. Honestly, aside from the smack talk that got under your skin, I can't fathom how anyone can attack anyone else without being ready to accept that there might be serious repercussions. OR at least that they might fight back in a manner and with a goal of winning. Why would we or how would we know that you would not come back after the first few tries that you started without a shred of warning?

How do people that want to survive or win conduct wars in sandboxes or anywhere? Ozem's policy is to WIN in the tradition of Clausewitz or if against impossible odds (this hurts) make terms. Render your opponent unable to or uninterested in continuing. However you can. There are no "friendly" wars.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Doc
Why would we or how would we know that you would not come back after the first few tries that you started without a shred of warning?

Nothing further developed later in the affair or anywhere else because *we* had no way of knowing if EBA would just come and break all of our toys anytime we attacked anyone anywhere. My mega thread on the topic at the time covered it all I think.

OR at least that they might fight back in a manner and with a goal of winning.

I would have expected Ozem's Vigil to come attack us. I wasn't expecting EBA to come and stomp on us like bugs.

It wasn't "you" that came back and beat us again, it was effectively representatives of half the server's groups. For no good reason other than we're all super secret friends let's gang rape them? Or Aragon needed to be put under the boot? It was disproportionate and highlights the poor level of strategy and psychology present in the involved leadership at the time.

Don't preach to me about Clauswitz, I play grand strategy games for fun. This was not about distaste for total victory, it was about my frustration with people making regional conflict in a fledgling sandbox game non-viable, essentially before the game even started. Hence why me and Atheory were constantly railing against the NAP and all of that crap.

Ozem's policy is to WIN in the tradition of Clausewitz or if against impossible odds (this hurts) make terms. Render your opponent unable to continue. However you can.

AGC was doing that before everyone else by attacking harvesters and crafters in town early in EE, and we were told not to because it hurt the game and hurt people's feelings. Our tactics were specifically to try to hurt what we perceived as threats to map balance by using guerilla warfare, all we could muster at our size vs a juggernaut. Either way I stopped. We sought out legitimate battle with an equal sized opponent and you come back and roflstomp. hilarious

It's bizarre how some of you are so against the total warfare concept except when it is you doing it.

Now do you begin to understand why I dislike many of you? You still might think I'm crazy, but that is essentially a run up to where I am today (including info from the other thread on Freevale) and why I act and type the way I do.
 
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