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Concerns over Settlement Costs

Smitty
@ Mistwalker
If you are pitching this game to an investor .. and they don’t ask for the negatives about the project .. then I guess you wouldn’t need to rebrand it.. but if they do ask .. ( like most people would if they were spending 10 mil on something..)

The negatives.. the game had a really rough first year .. the UI is horrible, the character generator is basic .. the online gaming community made it one of the lowest games ever … ( you know those companies that tore it apart for the business model etc …) . If you are buying this and don’t plan to rebrand it in some way to distance yourself from GW and that publicity.. you probably shouldn’t be spending any money on it …

So nothing but common sense tells me the new developer would want to somehow rebrand the game in order to revitalize it .. sort of took that for granted.. as it makes sense to me..
Doc
"Larger pool of players? Who? Why wouldn't the exact same people take over for the exact same reason they are in power now?"

If they had 0 resources and 0 exp, they would have an equal chance at gaining power as any other group joining the game.

The whole permanent pre-launch EXP and settlement control was essentially a bribe by GoblinWorks to get people to fund their high-risk project.

If the new developer decided to grandfather in that terrible (but apparently necessary) marketing decision, I'd be so incredibly shocked. like smile

If they have 10 mill to blow on this project, they don't need any of yours or my subs. New people will suffice.
Bringslite
Doc
1. There isn't any guarantee that a large number of new players will come and stick to the game just because there is a wipe.

2. If the game gets some love, there is a wipe, and fills up with players (gets moderately successful) there will be constant cries for wipes for the rest of the game's future, just like there always are.

3. When some of you say "wipe" but you expect to come out the other end with your xp piled up and available, do you really think that the general public MMO pop will see that and call it a wipe? That they will feel like it is a fresh start for everyone?

——-

1. No guarantee not wiping will attract players, so basically a worthless statement. However, PFO has deviated from the norm in the MMO industry by marketing/commercializing pre-launch player advantage, so a wipe would seem more consistent with new player/customer expectations.
2. Nobody asks for a game to be wiped after it launches. I consider wipes pre-launch fair game by a Developer, as would many who play Early Access games I imagine.
3. I don't want any of my XP after a PFO wipe. I'd like the game wiped completely and utterly. I have several Day 1 DT and single Characters with 95% max potential exp, by the way.

#3- That's great for you Doc. You can't expect everyone to feel that way. I get that you are angry that you don't have a settlement of your own for AGC. I agree that it really sucks. There should be mechanics in that allow you to get one, now. Many others have adapted and combined. Some with the knowledge that they can split off later and get their own place under the sun.

#2- Nobody asks for a game to be wiped after it launches? Really? Google up some EVE. They ignore it or release the standard line if they want, sometimes. The players usually answer for them, explaining a few things.

As for #1 being a worthless statement, I disagree. We are not a large player base (admitted) and if they are successful, they would not miss any of us much. I also know that cash flow talks. Yet I can't help thinking that this issue is already covered (one way or another) in the deal that Lisa is forging. Regardless, there isn't a way to prove that any players will come if there is a total wipe (even though I am sure some would), but why risk the subscribed accounts that you have now, for some un provable gamble? Negative publicity can be shrugged of by large companies, but they still don't want to look like bad guys.

If they really get going and achieving some of this game's potential, and that requires a complete wipe, honestly I feel they should go for it. If they can do the same and not wreck what we (players) have built, I say go that way.

As for entitlement, as I have previously said: my money spent is well worth everything to date. If they TOTAL wipe, I (speaking only for myself here) probably won't complain loudly because of that. If a seriously large core of people that I like stick around after that, I might also. The game would have to be really good at that point, though.

Now having said that, I would not be happy to see all the work that my friends and I have done get wiped only to see almost the exact same game put back up and expecting us to start over. What is the point in that? I have played that already. There are other games out there.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Doc
"I get that you are angry that you don't have a settlement of your own for AGC."

I don't want a settlement anymore, I gave up and stopped caring about that shit months ago, I want the game to be viable going forward.

My anger such as it is, or remains, is primarily just directed at individuals who are douchebags.

"Now having said that, I would not be happy to see all the work that my friends and I have done get wiped only to see almost the exact same game put back up and expecting us to start over. What is the point in that? I have played that already. There are other games out there."

Wiping the game has nothing to do with retaining your (or mine for that matter) sub. It is about making the game viable and attracting a larger sustainable following.

It just so happens I'm more interested in playing an interesting game with thousands of new people at level 1, than getting to play Lord of the Flies at t3 level 20 with a couple hundred of the same sad faces I've seen for a year. I don't expect many of the remainders to agree with that, but I don't really care, and I don't think new owners will either - they certainly won't have an obligation to hamstring the game's future by catering to a hundred or so holdouts that are a legacy of the previous company's design decisions and failures. It would be a nice gesture, no doubt, but I think it would be a terrible business decision. I could see them giving out some subscription vouchers as a consolation prize to make up for it - I think that would be incredibly fair.
Doc
Note, edited above post for more context on my point of view.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Doc
"Not to mention that if 10,000 do join, that will be 20 to one odds against the T3 people - it won't take long for them to be without their T3 gear."

Where are those new players going to train? How will they acquire the advanced resources needed to develop high level settlements even?

You predicate a successful diverse ecosystem in game on hundreds of strangers coordinating a combined war against entrenched players with extreme advantages. I don't think the new developer will risk the project on such a flimsy bet.

If they want to brute force it they can use Factions. Or maybe they'll use diplomacy, underhanded tactics, or infiltration to do it. There are plenty of options.
Decius
Doc
"Larger pool of players? Who? Why wouldn't the exact same people take over for the exact same reason they are in power now?"

If they had 0 resources and 0 exp, they would have an equal chance at gaining power as any other group joining the game.

The whole permanent pre-launch EXP and settlement control was essentially a bribe by GoblinWorks to get people to fund their high-risk project.

If the new developer decided to grandfather in that terrible (but apparently necessary) marketing decision, I'd be so incredibly shocked. like smile

If they have 10 mill to blow on this project, they don't need any of yours or my subs. New people will suffice.
The existing player base and Pathfinder liscence are the only things that they would be buying. The software itself could be made (again) for next to nothing, and the programmers and designers could likely be hired easily.

The networking code is impressive, but it is not hard to duplicate.
Bringslite
@ Doc,

Whether NewCorp wipes everything or not, if they improve the game, there will be 1000s of new players. You will have lots of new douchebags to play with. I don't know who the current ones are, but I assume I am one. That is actually a pleasant feeling. hehe

As I have already written, I think offering (in some way) the things that are really bugging prospect-ives like DT, a new expansion landrush, and of course all of the graphics-features-working mechanics, early PVP opportunities, etc… is the real "magic bullet". Those things are, by far, the real issues posted on other forums.

If it REALLY helped the game, a wipe and sub vouchers would be acceptable to me. Not if My core group left the game, but if they also stayed.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Thod-Theodum
@Doc

Has it ever occurred to you that part of your problems with this game might be poor game play on your side?

I remember you were upset of not being a member of the Alpha Aristocracy from day 1. At the time (it likely was January last year) I advised you to be patient. This game is a sandbox. This is a game where actions have consequences. You didn't care - you wanted to play chaotic - and then played the game - but never how you played.

Problem 1: Being patient and having staying power.
You complain about no settlement - there have been several changing hands. Yes - it was impossible early on - but there were options for month now. All you needed was to wait, build up, split off and take the opportunity. Other settlements have done so. I had to wait 11 month to get an Auction House. I bid my time and look where EL is right now in regard to trade.

Problem 2: Bandit and being at the centre of the map
One big stupid problem of Aragon and Freevale is - THEY ARE IN THE WRONG PLACE OF THE MAP !! Good places would be Tavernhold, Forgeholm, Sigil. As a bandit you need to be as far away as possible. The convenience to be close to 'victims' unfortunately becomes a convenience for others to victimize you. Ask yourself how many players would want to travel another half an hour one way to 'straf' a bandit settlement.
The ideal place for a bandit settlement is behind a large power. You then make a deal with that power to give them some spoils in return for training and resources and for leaving them alone while only targeting other settlement members not allied to that power. But who am I to advice bandits how to play. Let them joke about stupid lawful paladins and let them play stupid bandits instead. That way I never have to fear them.

Problem 3: A lot of 'good' characters are looking for reasons to PvP
There is a lot of mentioning of stomping the small guy. Actually what politically happens is that there is a quite large population in this game which would like to PvP 'safely' and on their term but who are a) afraid of consequences and b) have scruple to attack first. Aragon of AGC did get stomped because there were LOTS of players who liked to attack someone who gave them a good reason while they would have the advantage of size and even could congratulate themselves for doing a 'good deed'. I'm not sure it is possible to avoid this issue completely as a bandit/chaotic/evil group - but a good player is aware of it and minimizes the fallout for themselves. I sometimes had the feeling you maximized the problems and then whined afterwards how unfair the game is against you.
Maybe it comes as news to you - but there was a time when I was afraid that EL might get under attack and stomped. The difference was a) I only provoked as far as I felt it was safe b) I knew what I had done to deserve it when I realized I might have gone one step too far c) I had a plan b to move elsewhere d) I had also prepared possible local support in case I miscalculated e) I managed to avoid being stomped.
Maybe you did the same - but I couldn't see any of it in your game play for AGC.

So some of your arguments reboot to me read as - I did mistakes in the game - NewCorp - please reboot because it is unfair that what I did in the game wrong has consequences. It is absolutely understandable that you feel that way - but reflect about what you did in the game, how you played - and if all of your failure truly can be blamed on the game.

Yes - I had the advantage over AGC to be a member of the Alpha Aristocracy. But look around - how many of these are truly left in the game. Any dedicated and good leader who started day one and played his cards and the diplomacy game right could be a settlement leader today.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Mistwalker
Thod-Theodum
Yes - I had the advantage over AGC to be a member of the Alpha Aristocracy. But look around - how many of these are truly left in the game. Any dedicated and good leader who started day one and played his cards and the diplomacy game right could be a settlement leader today.

I was not part of the Alpha Aristocracy, yet I am a settlement leader now - I ended up taking Stoneroot Glade and turning it into High Road. It took a fair bit of work, but it is/was doable.
 
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