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Give strip harvested hexes a chance of regrowth

Bringslite
Decius
Bringslite
Heh, negative dirt nap balances don't sit well with me. smile

It's a game. No matter how much we like to believe the other guy has horns, filed teeth, and eats baby pandas we should remember that it's really just another person adding content (and challenge) to a game where that isn't always easy to find.

As for exploits (past or present) we are ALL guilty. For example, I can't think of any reason why Ustalavs (or any invaders) should be "maintained" (milked) when any sane people would finish them off. There are more examples and GW is aware of almost all of them. None (to my knowledge) are game breakers. Punishing us for exploits is GW's call and province, not ours. If they don't address them and tell us "Do not do X", we can probably assume that they are not real concerned about them right now.

Saying that farming rather than killing Usties is an "exploit" doesn't actually make it equivalent to taking advantage of bugs.

Let's not take the rudeness of discussing those things off topic as carte blanche to proclaim innocence or equal guilt.

The point that I am trying to make is that you can get your knickers in a bind and proclaim someone is cheating or exploiting all you like, but nothing is an "exploit" or "duping" or "unacceptable behavior" unless GW says it is. Those that feel a person or group is doing something like these things should report them to GW rather than have a forum trial or drag them back out months after they were reported, dealt, with or GW judged and acted upon it in the fashion that they feel fits.

Unless you are so full of bile that you get some sort of personal pleasure from it(<–actually, even then) I wouldn't mind if it were all just dropped after a REAL judgment has been made on it by the Real game GMs.

I am always open to a debate about what is and is not an exploit but they are always just opinions.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Decius
Things which are "Taking advantage of an error in the implementation of the design to gain an advantage that was not designed" are that whether or not it is acknowledged as such. Things which are "Taking advantage of a design that was implemented as written, but that created an incentive gradient other than the one expected" are that whether or not they are acknowledged as such.

Ryan Dancey
The one thing I have learned over and over is to trust the community. Not necessarily to trust any individual or group in the community, but to trust the community as a whole. Time after time, I have seen that when the community, en masse, makes itself known on some subject, it almost always produces an 80/20 majority. And if you listen to what the 80% are saying, you are almost always going to have a better outcome than if you listen to what the 20% are saying (not always - especially in the case of game balance issues - but most often when the issue involves the community's perception of standards and ethics).

This community is in a raw, protean state. Whilst many of you have been active for more than a year, we are attracting new people continuously. There are no hard and fast community standards or ethics yet because those things evolve in the face of actions and reactions and we have not had very many things to react to at this point.

You, the members of the community, have many ways to express your opinions and we are listening. We're not just watching these forums. We've got a pretty comprehensive network of ways to listen - we watch many resources and engage in many ways, not all on-line.

A successful sandbox MMO cannot be run within a framework of "everything not permitted is forbidden", or "everything not forbidden is permitted". Do a deep dive on any game that has tried those approaches and all you will find is chaos, alienation, and failure.

Instead, there must be a hybrid between hard & fast rules established by us, the administrators, for the purpose of good order and functioning of the product, fuzzy guidelines regarding appropriate behavior that will be enforced as necessary for the best interests of the game, the community and the business, and standards evolved by the community and policed by the community for the commons you hold jointly.

We do not have a parent/child relationship with you. We are at most your peers, and more rationally your servants. Our goal is not to tell you how to live your lives, but to help you live them in a fulfilling, compelling, and sustainable way.

YOU are responsible for deciding that is the kind of engagement you want to have with Pathfinder Online, and with one another.

If 80% of the community feels that duplicating items, using items that were accidentally and uncontrollably duplicated, using Auspicious Critical to have an inexhaustible power well, taking outposts and holdings when the window should be closed, farming Ustalavians with incomplete AI, killing people at shrines, kiting people to shrines so that you die near the shrine, and leashing groups to drop aggro are ALL equally bad, then I predict that it will rapidly converge to 100% of the community, followed by an undefined fraction of the community. Every one of those things can have the word "exploit" adjusted to include it.

The debate cannot meaningfully be about what "exploit" means; the meaningful debate is only about how acceptable each course of action is or is not, both in and out of game.
Thod-Theodum
@Decius
There are two ways of looking at it

a) black and white - and in this case calling all of these an exploit is wrong as you outline

b) in different shades between black and white

Looking at your list - here is my take:
1) Duplicating items - inexcusable and potentially game breaking. I would expect close to 100% of players agreeing to it (can't be 100% or it would never happen)
2) Auspicious Critical as an inexhaustible power well - not game breaking (with current low level PvP) as you can achieve the same in different ways. But I haven't heard anyone (even the people using it) to claim this is how it should be. The main argument for its use seems to be that the alternative is too bad (taking 5-10 minutes recharging). My personal take - I would never use it as I see it clearly as an exploit. I don't have any sympathie for players whining later when (not if) it gets fixed.
3) Taking outposts and holdings when the window is closed - not even aware this is possible (or how) but this also is clearly wrong.
4) Farming Ustalavians - I'm guilty having done it myself. This is not working as intended or should I better say - the players of PFO don't play the way GW anticipated. I've been on the receiving end when Ustalavians spawned like crazy and I had to farm them multiple hours a day to keep them in check (off course I was stupid only doing the easy ones - so never got T3). This is a game balance issue - and the pendulum swings one way and the other.
5) Killing people at shrines - this is wrong in nearly all cases. I say nearly all as there might be circumstances that make it necessary - but what is unacceptable is to camp at the shrine.
6) Kiting so that you die near a shrine - not sure I understand where this is wrong. I have the option to move in the opposite direction if I want to avoid you kiting me or what do I miss here? It also assumes you already plan to die - as if you kill me then I'm closer to the shrine and the advantage is mine. Would it be bad if I move across a hex line and now the shrine is further away?
7) Leashing groups to drop aggro - PvP or PvE?

No - they are not all equally bad. But we have a qualitative language (exploit = bad) and a quantitative approach - scale of 1-10 - how bad is it really and we have many people having different opinions. So pouncing on every (wrong in your mind) use of the word exploit is non-productive. Especially as we have many non English speakers who might interpret the word slightly different.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Decius
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Decius
"Working exactly as designed, but the design left a loophole that we want to close" is one thing. "Not working as designed" is entirely different. And you knew that.
I knew no such thing. Whether the scale of "exploit" fits your criteria or not doesn't change the fact that most of the map is doing some degree of it.

And now you're equivocating between the two things again. I don't care much what you call them, but calling them by the same name doesn't create a spectrum between them.
No. it's the fact that they are on a spectrum together that reveals a spectrum between them. Regardless of how mild a manipulation of an unintended effect is, not wanting a particular thing to be seen as an abuse of an imperfect mechanic does not actually change the fact it's an abuse of an imperfect mechanism.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Decius
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Decius
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Decius
"Working exactly as designed, but the design left a loophole that we want to close" is one thing. "Not working as designed" is entirely different. And you knew that.
I knew no such thing. Whether the scale of "exploit" fits your criteria or not doesn't change the fact that most of the map is doing some degree of it.

And now you're equivocating between the two things again. I don't care much what you call them, but calling them by the same name doesn't create a spectrum between them.
No. it's the fact that they are on a spectrum together that reveals a spectrum between them. Regardless of how mild a manipulation of an unintended effect is, not wanting a particular thing to be seen as an abuse of an imperfect mechanic does not actually change the fact it's an abuse of an imperfect mechanism.
Do you really not see a difference between abuse of a implementation failure (where the implementation doesn't do what the design says) and a design failure (where the design works exactly as written but the emergent behavior is unexpectedly unfun)?
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Decius
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Decius
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Decius
"Working exactly as designed, but the design left a loophole that we want to close" is one thing. "Not working as designed" is entirely different. And you knew that.
I knew no such thing. Whether the scale of "exploit" fits your criteria or not doesn't change the fact that most of the map is doing some degree of it.

And now you're equivocating between the two things again. I don't care much what you call them, but calling them by the same name doesn't create a spectrum between them.
No. it's the fact that they are on a spectrum together that reveals a spectrum between them. Regardless of how mild a manipulation of an unintended effect is, not wanting a particular thing to be seen as an abuse of an imperfect mechanic does not actually change the fact it's an abuse of an imperfect mechanism.
Do you really not see a difference between abuse of a implementation failure (where the implementation doesn't do what the design says) and a design failure (where the design works exactly as written but the emergent behavior is unexpectedly unfun)?
Of course I do. I see a difference of degree. Exactly the same type of difference as that between people who speed, and people who drive after drinking. Those are both violating laws and have exactly the same potential repercussion (responsibility for deaths and loss of driving privileges), but different degrees of risk. The exploits are both violating the spirit of the game, with the same potential result (loss of account privileges), but one has a higher risk of engendering it.

Do I think people who go 5 miles over the speed limit are the same as people who drive drunk? No. Neither do I think that people who farm mobs are the same as people who deliberately exploit some other failings of the game. But both of them pale beside something that could cause a real person to die.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Paddy Fitzpatrick
It ain't complicated, but since saying someone is guilty of using exploits is pretty much accusing the person of mortal sin, let's clarify…

An exploit is a bug or glitch that is a malfunction. The devs didn't intend for that bug to be there and need to remove it. Examples include bad hitbox/collision detection, item duping, moves that do way more or way less than the description says it should do, a monster spawn glitch or flaw in mob AI that causes the whole AI process to malfunction. Taking advantage of that is an exploit. It is on the devs to fix it but if the player is aware of it and uses it this is on them.

Bad design is different, cause the code is right, the logic is right, the design of the game is set up the way the devs wanted it but the end result was something they did not want/expect. It makes sense that bad design will create unwanted consequences and you can't blame the players for trying to play the game as is. If it is bad enough that is squashes fun that's all on the devs.

Yeah, Thod has a big point too of being different levels of seriousness. Some things are a lot worse than others.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Since everyone brings up usties, here's a good example of the difference:

All these complaints about how people farming usties is an "exploit" are bullshit. It is an MMORPG, people farm mobs all the damn time. Mob farming has been a thing since RPGs were first invented. If someone is gonna call farming mobs a "cheat" and "exploit" then Im sorry but they need to play more RPGs. It is part of the genre, if mobs give good loot that people want lots of people are gonna kill that mob to keeo gettinf that loot.

This is the first time I ever heard of it being something to be ashamed or found guilty of doing. Come on guys really? If this isn't how the devs wanted ustie escalations to work then that's on them to change it. They are the ones who made it this way and the game is working the way as intended (even if it ain't what they want in the end).

Now that said, lets say there was some glitch where you could consistently short circuit the AI for the ustie mobs and make them run around in circles and stop aggro. THAT is an exploit! That's a glitch or bug that ain't supposed to be there and not what the devs intended for the AI. It does need to be fixed but in that case yeah players do got some responsibility.

Is it the end of the world? Not really, it ain't the same as say item duping, which is outright cheating (especially since some who do this are actively looking for glitches and bugs to pull it off rather than discovering it by accident).
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Smitty
@ Paddy putting this hear for your reference mostly it is history.. ( also a refresher for others) . Am not sure if you played during those times so some context might help as to why folks brought it up ..Farming Usties now is not really on the same level as the problem Jan- Feb last year..

The release notes Blog from Feb 19 .. 2 bottom points under escalations..
• Ustalav Invaders now top out at Generals, no longer spawn Heroes or Legends.
• Improved effectiveness of Ustalav spellcasters.

That was done because ..
https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/1664/?page=1
The casters and priest did nothing except debuff the entire fight ..
As you can tell from the title thread GW didn’t out right say farming those guys like that for 6 weeks was an exploit ..
I don’t think anyone is saying the current ustie farming is an exploit .. the prelates and casters are actually fighting back..
But for the first 6 weeks of the game .. if you ran into a legend, 2 prelates and 2 casters .. the only thing that would actually attack and do damage to you was the legend .. you could leave any non melee mob till last … this was the situation that was referenced ..
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Smitty
I don’t think anyone is saying the current ustie farming is an exploit .. the prelates and casters are actually fighting back..
Actually, I am, and not just the Usties, but any mob. We're manipulating the mechanic of escalation clearing in order to improve our drops. It's just not much of an exploit. I'd like to see the escalations stop spawning new mobs when they hit zero, so the hex could slowly turn into generic mobs again, rather than the instant change when the boss is killed.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
 
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