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Holding Changes

Duffy Swiftshadow
Some of this argument hinges on the way things are today but factions, new classes, and new abilities that could be used outside of a combat will start throwing wrenches in the current gate breaking habits. Maybe I'm a rarity but I already have different PvE and PvP cross class setups that use different attacks, features, and armors. The only XP I've spent in crafting was some I did at the start and the XP in miner to get Con to 11 as there were just so few useful options. I'll easily hit T3 without doing anymore crafting and have a broad range of PvE and PvP capabilities.

Don't forget we also have a ridiculously low amount of gear churn and item loss right now, let's not assume that today's gear churn is going to be any realistic reflection of gear churn in a more populous future.
Edam
Duffy Swiftshadow
Don't forget we also have a ridiculously low amount of gear churn and item loss right now, let's not assume that today's gear churn is going to be any realistic reflection of gear churn in a more populous future.

We had a total of 12 or 13 deaths in a Elemental Escalation group just a few days ago but for a fair while were definitely fighting well above our weight (T2/T3 gear but at one stage 2 sometimes 3 characters taking on large groups with multiple Elder Elementals) . Sure some groups play super conservatively and never take risks but the entire server is not playing that way.

I think, more to the point, those groups that are taking risks and churning through gear tend also to be making their own replacement gear so you are not seeing any resultant turnovers on the AH.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Edam
Duffy Swiftshadow
Don't forget we also have a ridiculously low amount of gear churn and item loss right now, let's not assume that today's gear churn is going to be any realistic reflection of gear churn in a more populous future.

We had a total of 12 or 13 deaths in a Elemental Escalation group just a few days ago but for a fair while were definitely fighting well above our weight (T2/T3 gear but at one stage 2 sometimes 3 characters taking on large groups with multiple Elder Elementals) . Sure some groups play super conservatively and never take risks but the entire server is not playing that way.

I think, more to the point, those groups that are taking risks and churning through gear tend also to be making their own replacement gear so you are not seeing any resultant turnovers on the AH.

Very true, but that ties back into the low population and abundance of crafters. If a whole party needs their armor replaced that can take 1-3 crafters working for anywhere between 3-6 days depending on the party requirements. If you need gear replaced once a week and you have two active parties and no change in crafters #s suddenly it takes 6-12 days to replace gear which could translate to waiting or going with lower quality. But at least you can plan a bit for PvE, but if you start getting unplanned PvP the demand can rise again as you churn faster.

Right now is literally the calmest and easiest this game will probably ever be. I'm just saying it's faulty all around to assume anything economically today resembles the proverbial tomorrow. Lot of possibilities, but we won't know for sure until we hit a true critical mass that makes the game start to resemble the sandbox it needs to be.
Bringslite
Duffy Swiftshadow
Edam
Duffy Swiftshadow
Don't forget we also have a ridiculously low amount of gear churn and item loss right now, let's not assume that today's gear churn is going to be any realistic reflection of gear churn in a more populous future.

We had a total of 12 or 13 deaths in a Elemental Escalation group just a few days ago but for a fair while were definitely fighting well above our weight (T2/T3 gear but at one stage 2 sometimes 3 characters taking on large groups with multiple Elder Elementals) . Sure some groups play super conservatively and never take risks but the entire server is not playing that way.

I think, more to the point, those groups that are taking risks and churning through gear tend also to be making their own replacement gear so you are not seeing any resultant turnovers on the AH.

Very true, but that ties back into the low population and abundance of crafters. If a whole party needs their armor replaced that can take 1-3 crafters working for anywhere between 3-6 days depending on the party requirements. If you need gear replaced once a week and you have two active parties and no change in crafters #s suddenly it takes 6-12 days to replace gear which could translate to waiting or going with lower quality. But at least you can plan a bit for PvE, but if you start getting unplanned PvP the demand can rise again as you churn faster.

Right now is literally the calmest and easiest this game will probably ever be. I'm just saying it's faulty all around to assume anything economically today resembles the proverbial tomorrow. Lot of possibilities, but we won't know for sure until we hit a true critical mass that makes the game start to resemble the sandbox it needs to be.

Meh, it's true that trying to project conditions or predict them is weird science. You can say that about anything that gets proposed or argued against. Either way, if gear can be made too easily, it will be(IMO) too common.

Edit: However, perhaps a sort of "coin sink" expense for more simultaneous queue times might be worth looking at…
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Duffy Swiftshadow
The only gear that's supposed to be uncommon is T3 and +4/+5, and ideally it will be due to the timeframe to craft it, resources sunk into it, and the eventual threading system. If it's not the numbers can be tweaked to hit the desired effect.

Just think about the examples, if you were losing a set of T3 armor every week it would take 3+ full time crafters to keep you equipped. For an active combat population of 100 T3 characters that would require 300 crafters. That's not even including the number of refiners it would take to keep those queues going, which rough guess is around 50-100 more characters? That's 350-400 crafters that aren't producing T2; which if they were could be producing around 15x+ as much T2 gear.

Maybe those 100 combat characters are also all crafting T2 due to cross training for gates, but that means there is another pile of refiners and a ton of gatherers supporting them. It also means you are making far less T2 than if the primary crafters were doing it.

I think it's a very complex problem with a lot of moving parts and possibilities.

Side note: I like the sink cost for the second queue. Might be a good use for bulk resources, maybe make it scale with the tier of each job?
Bringslite
Almost all of this speculation has so many variables that it starts to get a bit impossible to lay numbers out. Factors like repair, threading, settlement level settings, skill levels, pop levels, etc…

Duffy, do you mean that T3 +4 or +5 is supposed to be the uncommon, or do you mean any +4 or +5 is? Why/where do you get that? Is that an arbitrary statement or is it somewhere in the original GW design?

My understanding, though this may have no written backing either, was that choosing to play everything in T3 gear would be outrageously expensive to keep up. Kind of that T3 was for REALLY IMPORTANT stuff and T2 was to be mainstream.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Duffy Swiftshadow
+4 was supposed to be uncommon, and +5 pretty rare due to being refining procs only and they would be required for enchantments. The more +s the more threads they take up. This is why in the long run +1 and +0 gear might still serve a purpose if your trying to balance your threads such that a single death doesn't drop or destroy any equipment.

You weren't supposed to be able to safely thread a full set of T3. If you decided to run with mostly T3 some significant portion would be unthreaded and thus dropped/destroyed if you died. Making it very risky to even try equipping all T3 for anything the least bit likely to kill you.

Some of the speculation was you could safely use maybe one or 2-3 T3 items (if majority were non-weapons or non-armor) and some combination of downgraded T2 and T1 for the rest of your slots or you instead equip mostly good T2.
Bringslite
Duffy Swiftshadow
+4 was supposed to be uncommon, and +5 pretty rare due to being refining procs only and they would be required for enchantments. The more +s the more threads they take up. This is why in the long run +1 and +0 gear might still serve a purpose if your trying to balance your threads such that a single death doesn't drop or destroy any equipment.

You weren't supposed to be able to safely thread a full set of T3. If you decided to run with mostly T3 some significant portion would be unthreaded and thus dropped/destroyed if you died. Making it very risky to even try equipping all T3 for anything the least bit likely to kill you.

Some of the speculation was you could safely use maybe one or 2-3 T3 items (if majority were non-weapons or non-armor) and some combination of downgraded T2 and T1 for the rest of your slots or you instead equip mostly good T2.

If that is the intent then why the push for more queues per character? You still believe that crafters will be rare when the population booms?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Duffy Swiftshadow
I personally think there will be less useful crafter queues than combat characters and that gear churn will be pretty wildly different, especially if people are running around without safely threading everything. Not to mention systems like Banditry or Assassinations that might have some effect on threading or equipment your carrying.

There is also always the chance they will revisit the conversation where they had intended to bump T2 queue times up because they thought they were too low.
Edam
One viable possibility is a skill to open up two (or more) queues but only one queue is available per craft/refine skill.

That way a multiclass crafter could still only make one T3 armor at a time for example, but will be able to use the alternate queues to do some refining or knock out a few weapons.

I like the idea of multiple queues but would be opposed to multiple queues making the same type of things.
 
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