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The fallacy of entitlement in an open sandbox

Thod-Theodum
It is with sadness that I read in a different thread that another player has quit. I wasn't around yesterday - but my son was and even wanted me to join. I declined as it was late and I couldn't see the benefit of it.
Seeing the fall-out from it I felt I should comment - but I want to do it in a different thread.

In my view there is fault on two sides here. The person claiming the hex and escalation for his friends reacted unreasonable. The current escalations are limited. In a game like this it means the first one defeating it gets the spoils. The escalations close to the centers of power are all killed - so the ones further away are now targeted.

Just being close doesn't give you any true entitlement to such a resource. After all - the River Kingdom motto is - you have what you hold. Therefore in a weak position to claim the hex, not being able to show which settlement you belong to, placing someone of a KOS list - well - take a step back - couldn't that been handled differently?

You could have joined the party - apparently that was offered. You could have cut a deal. Hey - you are far away - we don't have the manpower up here - can you delay (by hours but not by days - be reasonable) or can you give us some of the spoils when you defeat the boss. Or we allow you to reduce it to 50% if you then guard it for us. Well - this is a sandbox - there are many options - but be aware that if you are in a weak position that you don't have an entitlement - but that players in this game are reasonable and will listen and offered a deal they are likely to take it instead of just pushing you out of the way.
I have survived with my settlement between two major powerblocks. This wasn't possible without concessions - but it left me enough freedom to enjoy the game how I like it.
Making threads without power to back it up on the other hand will result in the opposite.

To the party that drove off the player. Well - the real issue is likely more the way you handled it as what you did. My son seemed amused about the whole situation of someone making large claims and being laughed at. Well - I guess that someone was acting unreasonable because he felt badly treated and did post things he shouldn't. But effectively you bullied him. Nothing wrong with that in a game of domination - but take a step back and think about feelings of others. And yes - all the bystanders fueling the whole situation by adding oil to the fire don't help either.
But the learning should be - in the end I'm convinced the player didn't stop because he couldn't attack the legends with his friends. He did stop playing because his feelings were deeply hurt.
How to avoid this - not sure. But it wasn't the first time it has happened. Just it wasn't EoX this time who was the group driving someone out. People here need to be able to spot when players are driven into a corner and their way of play seems no longer viable.

And once again all that could have been prevented at so many levels. An active leadership of Talonguard could have been helpful. More people playing might have prevented it. Players better understanding where the other person is coming from might help. Trying to look at it from the opposite position might help. And the latter is true for BOTH sides.

Well - it happened - and it won't be the last time smile

Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Stilachio Thrax
As I said in the other thread, part of this is also the incomplete systems fro settlement/territory control and lack of souldbinding. Right now, it is tempting to run 20 hexes to take something out- if you die, you respawn close to it. Any good loot, you bank it at the nearest settlement. Need power? Run to the closest settlement or inn.

Now if you could only soulbind at a settlement that is friendly to you (and allows it), a 1 hex return may turn into a 10-15 hex return. If the closest settlement that allows you to bank in it is 15 hexes away, doesn't that make the risk significantly higher? Doesn't that allow for an aggrieved party to tell Fianna that player X and his buddies poached something of ours and they have to get to settlement Y, 15 hexes away- why don't you intercept them and enjoy the spoils? Want to log so things calm down and you can sneak back to your home area in a quiet time? Well, you can't get into any nearby settlements, so you'll have to hoof it now or log in the wilderness, with all the risks associated with that.

The incident last night was unfortunate for many reasons, and both parties (as well as some general chat onlookers) didn't help things. But the game's incomplete state didn't help either, and people need to be cognizant of that.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Stilachio Thrax
the game's incomplete state didn't help either, and people need to be cognizant of that.
We should be cognizant of it, but that doesn't make it okay. Various people have been saying for a long time that social tools are MVP for a social game. We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells around our dictators (unless that's your Xeiliasthing) or have to decide which settlement to move to when your leaders stop playing a year into the game.

And by the way,
Thod
An active leadership of Talonguard could have been helpful
Talonguard has nothing to do with this one. It's Tavernhold.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Zax
People should also be cognizant of the fact that this is a SANDBOX and PVP will/must happen, if you are into it or not. Life is PVP, and so is this game.

People can try and blame the game for incidents like this, but it really is on the players. Most of the umbrage took place due to circumstances that are not in GW control. I am sure some people think there could have been "mechanics" or some other nonsense, but this seems to be more of "how to interact with people" type situation.
Midnight
Caldeathe Baequiannia
We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells around our dictators (unless that's your Xeiliasthing)

smile
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Caldeathe Baequiannia
As much as I was joking about Xeilias, I have to pick my battles carefully, because our company could find ourselves with no vaults if one of us pisses-off our leadership, and with no recourse of any kind. I had to move everything in my vaults once, a couple of months into the game. I imagine doing it a year after the start of play because the leaders stopped showing up would be troublesome. Telling someone 17 months in that they should just pick a new settlement is all very well and good….
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Midnight
Another reason why players may choose Thornkeep life over player-settlement life.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I was initially saying why not move to another swttlement in your own alliance? Yeah you gotta move lots of stuff but ive had to do it several times myself. It sucks, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

You can either do that or stay in a completely dead settlement and have no way to do anything productive, or just go to Thornkeep and never progress and just fade into the background. If you guys are part of the same faction the only thing you are doing is relocating your company vaults. It aint like changing factions.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Zax
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I was initially saying why not move to another swttlement in your own alliance? Yeah you gotta move lots of stuff but ive had to do it several times myself. It sucks, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

You can either do that or stay in a completely dead settlement and have no way to do anything productive, or just go to Thornkeep and never progress and just fade into the background. If you guys are part of the same faction the only thing you are doing is relocating your company vaults. It aint like changing factions.

+1
Edam
There are going to be multiple issues and people leaving at this early stage of the game.

For example T3 gathering is something of a sore point for many. More than a few people have taken dedicated gathers to T3 only to find that the only T3 of that type within 20 hexes is locked up by a cartel trying to manipulate the market and gain a monopoly (Ann Rand capitalsim at its best smile ). I know at least one person considering unsubbing or selling a T3 gatherer account as it is more or less unusable.

Escalations are always contentious. Case in point - KP struggled for 4 or 5 weeks to get a Dark Elf escalation down pre-patch (one of our players lost half her hitpoints on T3 staffs and robes. Edam lost at least 5 hitpoints on T3 armor) only to have the boss taken out within a few days of the new patch making them easier, with no Keepers present. Annoying -yes. Enough to quit over - probably not unless it was the "final straw" for someone about to quit anyway.

It is a fine line, as with no conflict people leave from boredom - but on the other hand if the wrong sort of conflict makes people feel it is pointless and that nothing they can do will succeed then they will quit as well. We saw this at the end of the forever war when Ryan confirmed there would never be any way to "win" a continual feud against you and people should "harden up" and enjoy the chance to get a good fight and pad their kill list. We lost a lot of our PvP players at that point.
 
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